Crafting Times Reminder

Both things can be correct at the same time:

Do timers suck for some players? Yes.
Do they break the gameplay mechanics? No.

The devs have adjusted things, as needed in the past. Is it time to adjust machines, forging, & timers again? Possibly.

If they want people to choose a profession and develop it, we need to look at expanding skills and adding new ones. This would take us towards an RPG path though and encourage people to trade with/rely on others more. If they want to lean into the Sandbox label, they need to add automation & modding. Or both. I don’t know the direction of the game at this point.

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I think they already threw that out the window with the skill tree update that has been on testing for almost two years, It is already possible to be an Omni-crafter with the fact we have 5 skill pages, and whenever the next update comes out, it will be even easier for one char to do it all because the pages will support more skill points

I have some opinions and ideas about that, but alas it’s looking like I won’t be able to share for a while because… well, have a look for yourself…

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I was reading and reading, and reading some more.

Now I understand.
Some people do a bit of everything in game - these won’t have problem with crafting times in general.

Some though focus on one activity/aspect of the game. Be it farming, or hunting etc. That kind of players will have different perspective on certain game mechanics and how they are balanced.

@Dhusk - your Boundless life revolves around crafting, thus crafting times bother you more than others who do more non-crafting-related stuff. Understandable that it’s the crafting times what can make you quit.
Consider this though: if your particular way of playing Boundless was to be “helped” by cutting crafting times, the only thing you achieve would be doing the same thing more times. Your Boundless experience is that of a cycle of gather>>craft>>sell. How many cycles can be completed within one week of playing isn’t really that important, I think. More is not necessarily better in this case.
So it seems to me, but I can be wrong of course.

Ah I thought you were being coy, but I’m pretty sure you’re talking about this?

The designer mentioned was long gone by that time and may never have been active on this forum, not sure.

Just an OT blurb but this is really to the point that someone who knows what they’re looking for, relevant info on game mechanics, can’t find it in the flood of what, 8 years, 9 years of “general” conversation :rofl:

I find the claim that it’s not intended as a time gate and has nothing to do with character development (specifically cubits) a bit disingenuous, but whatever. If I take the stated word as truth then there’s literally zero technical reason to hang on to this system at all.

Some advice there too :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Also, adjusting timers isn’t the same as fully removing them. If you never make changes, the game can never progress (not saying timers are the main thing that need changes).

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FTR I would be fully in support of simply adjusting the timers (albeit dramatically) instead of removing them altogether.

I had some additional side conversation with @Rydralain on this topic last night, and related things.

TBH it’s not significant enough that I want to spend my whole evening on the topic again :rofl: but still talking some points through brings some thoughts to the fore. Plus it’s boundless …

Here’s a caveat:

I literally came to boundless to be a crafter. I was looking to “replace” another game after a recent
(then) round of updates I was ready for something new. I had very few criteria and the top two were:

  • Persistent, shared worlds. If I drop something I want someone to be able to see it and grab it.
  • A non-trivial crafting system with room for merchant type players.

Honestly the third was pretty much “playable on a potato”, and I wanted something pretty new.

Well I didn’t realize at the time that “just released” for boundless didn’t exactly mean “new” :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Anyways I found Boundless and blah blah blah, but mostly this game calls to my RPG roots and in reality it has attracted, in large part, a very different kind of player from what I’ve been used to. It adds a different weight, and some different perspective, to certain things.

I’ve come to realize that it’s not crucial, or really even important overall, for a game to have something like a “crafter” just because it’s an MMO. Especially when it’s an MMO that is pointedly “NOT an RPG”.

Time to point out that any major change to a nearly decade-old game is going to cost some players. I’m not here to preach my preferred playstyle (obviously at all) and I’m not here to point at any playstyle as “the best”. This particular, honestly pretty mild, side issue in light of the current state of things, leads me think about what’s good for the game.

I honestly think that removing the crafting profession, and it’s RPG trappings from the game could be a huge boost. To retention, to playability, and to a lot less friction between the “traditional MMORPG” crowd and the sort of person who would tackle a game like this to be “a builder”.

I did spend time wondering why certain (really a lot) of people would come into a game like this, and then seem to do nothing but cry about how hard it was, and how many obstacles there were. Let’s face it, for an MMORPG boundless is pretty trivial. But there it is again, it’s not that. It’s an open world voxel builder right?

The majority of people here haven’t seen this game as a competitor to EVE or WOW or you know, Neverwinter Nights (UO anyone, any body from The Realm here?). It’s always being held up against minecraft, and a host of other games that really have an entirely different direction. And it seems that when compared to those sort of games, it’s a bit of a burden to actually play.

At the end of the day, the game is super frustrating to a lot of people because of the number of doors they have tried to hold open, IMO. If there is anyone still trying to make a commercial success of this, they need to close a few of those doors. And the notion of the “crafter” as a profession, being the direct core of the economy, might be one of them.

In terms of a middle road, maybe they just remove all timers and experience from crafting blocks.

End of the day, the blocks a builder needs are different all the time, and they want them now. Just addressing this thing would remove a lot of the actual complaints I’ve seen over the years. And once people got into the groove, it would likely only increase the economy around raw materials and the supporting crafts needed to produce the blocks.

The only hard part would be gathering your “colored bits” - other wise there’s plenty of glue, sand, orbs, whatever around to buy and once you get your colors you push them through the machine and bam here’s your blocks. @Ratchel’s your uncle and all that.

It’s a hard core (hardcore grinder yah yah yah) obstacle to the feature that is in fact still supposed to be the major draw of the game. Those of us who always played such games just take it in stride I guess, and the building is a new part. At least, that’s how it’s been for me. But if I saw this game on steam and bought it to come build some cool stuff, I can see how trying to play would be a real gobsmacker.

Even if you’re willing to lay out some cash for plots immediately. Or a sovereign.

And having so many routes available, it also creates conundrums for people.

I was strongly against linking creative and live for this reason. But honestly, this is social/personal pressure that this game doesn’t need, and obviously can’t endure. And to be fair for that sort of player, it isn’t even the timers stopping them from getting into the game because they are not ever getting near high level crafting timers anyways. Most of them that I have ever met have quit within a very short time frame after realizing what it would take to “build their vision”.

Creative being available doesn’t solve this. It actually hurts it because plenty of players (y so serious) see that as a shortcut or the easy way out and so in a community that’s grinding through the MMORPG side of things creative building isn’t really respected.

Like yeah yeah I appreciate your art for a minute but I’m over here working for what I have. And even if you didn’t really care, or you’re not here to flex in that way anyways, that still hurts. So some people build less. A few people grind it out for show. But honestly, at the end of the billing period, most of them do the same thing. They leave.

This entire source of friction is in fact easily removed :man_shrugging:

It could be done wholesale, after a lot of thinking about this - an undue amount, really - it could be done wholesale and it might be one of the best things that ever happened to boundless. At least, in terms of being able to retain new players, and grow.

It could certainly be toned down, there are layers and specific points that would lead to easy compromise. As mentioned just addressing blocks might resolve much of the frustration. But honestly that leads (reasonably) to “what about meshes” and then “not fair to ‘gear crafters’” or whatever would come up around here…

I think I’ve heard a lot of people get teary eyed over how much more they like this building system than minecraft. The engine’s rendering obstacles (and settings really) are a notable obstacle but really what do you think is keeping all of those “builders” away from a beautiful, open world, voxel building game?

EDIT: OH JFC DO NOT SAY “COMMUNICATIONS” IT WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION /s :rofl:

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I agree with most of this as I have always felt Boundless had some sort of identity disorder. Is it a Sandbox? Is it an MMO? Is it an MMORPG? Is it any combo of the three?

It lends to mostly being a sandbox with some minor MMO/MMORPG elements. It’s been a hard sell to friends too as it one of those games that are just too hard to explain and something you have to play.

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Yes also the side conversation regards the difference between a genre, a playstyle, and some other elements of design that influence these things and categorization but aren’t either.

But an MMO, the core term, it only means one thing. Because of how the term came to popularity it’s so entwined with MMORPG it seems very hard to separate for a lot of people. Then conversations get muddy, and personally I tend to start getting pedantic :rofl:

As long as

  • lots of people can connect
  • they can interact

I’m 100% certain the game has met all of the requirements of “MMO”. This has zero impact or relevance to the game’s genre, available playstyles, etc …

They (‘they’) say it’s not an RPG, but it sure plays like one. To be fair it seems like they only said that to avoid developing lore :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s definitely, a sandbox, same as it’s an MMO. The requirements of this thing do not exclude any particular genre or playstyle. They also do not necessarily include any particular genre or playstyle, though. In a sandbox you can do what you like - with what’s available in the sandbox.

So back to this:

It’s 100% an MMO. It’s also 100% a sandbox. Meeting all qualifications that I’m aware of for either of these terms. It’s also “open world” and “persistent world”, both of which actually encompass different things, but aren’t mutually exclusive.

There’s no conflict honestly in any of that.

But yeah RPG is something pretty specifically else and man they’re awfully schizophrenic about that. I would say “minor MMORPG elements” is downplaying that bit, a lot :rofl:

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In my opinion, a low-population Boundless would benefit more from short timers than a high-population Boundless. If there are enough players to support a full and proper economy with reasonable prices for everything, then long timers are fine for most players. Not the “I want to do everything myself in sequence players”, but they are hard to cater to. And, if I’m being honest, a robust and successful Boundless should include private servers to cater to the needs of the niche players. Go join a “no crafting time” server or an “alternate forging prices” server.

Anyway, I’m rambly rn so I’ll shh

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Is it though?

I think it’s an open world voxel survival/economy/rpg more like.

I said in a different topic that it would help Boundless to brand itself more precisely to help player retention (not as the only way, but one of a few things to keep players that do come). I’ve seen too many players expecting another MC that left quickly when they found it’s something else.

Also - sandbox label seems to be problematic. That label make a lot of players expect that the game shouldn’t have items and activities gated behind skills, progression, time etc. This label problem could at least be “fixed” with 249 to a degree.

Day 2. Still waiting on my coal. Eventually I’ll get to play the game how I like to play it.

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:joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:nice

I’ve been thinking about this, and the crafting times themselves are not exactly what bothers me. What bothers me is that there is nothing you can actively do about them. In every other area of the game, if you need something or want to do something, there is an active activity you can do to take care of that. With crafting, you are just stuck. Bottlenecked out of the game, and often blocked from whatever other activity that you had planned for your play session.

I run into this most often with building. Some people use art programs or creative servers or whatever to plan out their builds and figure out ahead of time how many blocks they need of which type in which colors. I don’t do that. I get an idea, and I just want to make whatever I thought of before I lose interest and forget about it. So what? Just go buy it! Well, a lot of the time, I can’t. Not because I’m unwilling to buy it, but because no one is selling what I need. I use a lot of colors that come from chisel changing blocks or jumping through a multi-hoop step process like smashing up rocks into gravel because the game doesn’t have that particular color of gravel. People do not like to make large quantities of those colors to sell. So I cannot fast track the process by buying it. This is fine for all the other steps for me, because I am actively doing something to get towards my goal. I can charge out and harvest whatever I need to make what I want, I can mine up the color in whatever block it is actually available in, I can prepare ahead of time by keeping on hand combustion particles and kindling shreds to make my own stuff, I can buy the super enriched bonding agent…but then you hit the crafting timers. Boom. Brick wall. You have to wait for the rocks to crush, then you have to wait for the mosaic to craft, and now its 3 days later and you have forgotten why you wanted 6 smart stacks of bright orange mosaic in the first place and no longer care and its just super demotivating. The inspiration has died. And sure, you can have bazillions of machines and drop stuff into 20 of them at a time and then…stand around waiting for each one to slowly, slowly pump out whatever you need to stick it into another 20 crafting machines for an even longer wait, but…that isn’t fun. Its actually just torture.

If there were something I could actively do to feel like I was working towards whatever goal I have, it would be fine. I don’t care if I have to run around frantically micromanaging a bunch of things, oiling machines and repairing coils that wear out 50 times faster than normal. As long as there is a thing I can do to get where I am trying to go, that is fine. It is the brick wall in your face over and over again that sucks.

Some people like the passive nature of the machines, and that is fine. If you want to load up 3 thousand work benches with rock refining into stone or whatever just so you can collect the XP the next day, knock yourself out. I would prefer an active activity I could do to make the crafting go faster in the cases where I just really need something now and have no other way to obtain it. Standing in my workshop waiting for 3 hour timers to tick so I can do whatever it is I’m trying to do just sucks.

I can agree with this. I’ve always said that we don’t necessarily have to remove crafting times altogether. They just need reduced dramatically. How they get reduced, I’m completely open and I think a system where progression of your character leads to reduced crafting times could be good.

For example. consider a system wherein as you craft a specific thing, you gain proficiency with crafting that item and the craft times reduce down to a minimum threshold. Compact Hard Coal may start out at 3 hours 7 minutes per mass craft but the more of these you craft, it continually reduces all the way down to, say, 5 minutes or something.

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I see what you did there lol. Very clever very very clever.

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Everyone has the right to participate in the discussion. :upside_down_face:

Sure. And if you choose to participate unproductively, that is your right as well. When the game gets shut down because it cannot generate a profit, don’t be surprised. :roll_eyes: Sometimes I wonder if that is not people’s goals.

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