I think that anytime you bring in monetization into a game no matter how hard you try it can be argued that their are some pay to win aspects. I don’t mind this do to the fact that money is needed to keep running a game and keep receiving updates. I don’t think having more plots would be something completely overpowered as their are different ways of achieving money in this game, and if at the end of the game you can achieve the same things by continuing to play, instead of paying I’m happy with that concept.
I didn’t mean to imply that you did. My point in bringing philosophy was to highlight that flat is objective because my flat isn’t going to look like your flat. So why not agree to disagree and play to our advantages.
The problem isn’t regarding the work for the footfall it is the amount of plots gained and the potential for out-scaling anyone else in the game. Legit Player A will never be able to compete in the long run for prestige and for that reason it isn’t a fair playing field. A legit player can only get 350 plots max at 50 (1050 across 3 characters). A person that buys a current founder pack can easily get way more than that and most have 2+ additional accounts. Just plop down more resources and boom they win every day of the week.
Those that see this is as “not a P2W scenario” should then technically have NO issue with removing footfall traffic because it isn’t a problem. Many people are against this because whether they consciously disagree through a whole list of reasons still understand subconsciously that plots + resources = prestige = income. So people are not being fair and honest. If people didn’t value income in the game then they would have no issue with my 2 suggestions on fixing the P2W problem.
It is not an absolute but still gives a potential. That is the point. It is not a fair system.
This has nothing to do with that and you are changing the discussion points. Re-read what I said. I basically said that if they want a flat system they need to give a flat plot count. If they have a contractual obligation to give more plots to those that bought Founder rights then do so. I don’t see anywhere in that contract that plots were REQUIRED to have income via footfall. So remove that. I clearly showed a way people can keep plot bonuses and buy plots without having to have a P2W model within it.
Yeah I wasn’t sure if you mean me or them… but good point. Yeah I personally don’t like the “flat” word either. It is too vague and the context around it is key.
I am all for advantages and playing to them but just want a fair a playing field was possible based on GAME ONLY dynamics and not bring in REAL LIFE dynamics since that is where things just get most of the time.
I have always been puzzled by the income in Boundless. For basic needs we get plenty from playing and reaching daily and weekly goals. I don’t see any reason anyone needs more than that as most probably never spend it. I didn’t even really notice it for a long time until I leveled and got coin for leveling. I probably had just always played and never paid attention to rewards other than skill points. So, that got me looking in the forums and I saw many people are always worried about footfall and prestige. Then I went looking for what it was and why anyone would care about it. To me, if you want income then that is simple. Gather and sell resources in whichever manner interests you whether in a shop or delivered to someone. If that doesn’t interest you gathering through farming or hunting and selling then craft whatever you love crafting and sell that. If you prefer building and want income then become good at building and make some awesome things to show then sell your services to players that don’t have the skills or ability or interest in building and be an independent contractor. Some games I play some make buildings, homes, statues, furniture, etc. that they are hired by players to make for them. They do an awesome job. There are no taxes. There is no footfall income. So, the only purpose I see is to increase the income of those few people that make most of the money in the game already with or without footfall. To the rest of us, what we make without those things is more than we need. It seems to me all about the prestige of builds and prestige of being wealthy. So, to me the subject is best just simply ignored unless it becomes a big deal in discussions. To the majority of players it means nothing to us. I doubt I would ever spend the money I already make (and yesterday I got 40 coin as my first ever footfall income I think lol) so the extra income means nothing. I’m not here to compete. What attracted me the most is probably the image that there is no competition to “win.” I’m nearly always all by my lonesome out in the desert away from people intentionally. City life does nothing for me in real life and nothing for me in Boundless either other than now and then go look out of curiosity as I look for a portal to go wherever I’m out to go.
You are so wrong here. Plots doesn’t mean prestige/footfall as James said. Prestige doesn’t mean plots either. Even in Mobius Plaza where it is a mix of his and others plots, You have to fill the plot with something that has prestige. IE: Blacklight held the capital for a very long time and was only a fraction of the size than 90% of the cities on Berlyn. That was NOT plots bud, that was prestige, and knowing how to build.
If you are that worried about losing a % of prestige bonus on footfall, here is a perfect idea= Footfall prestige can have 3 or 4 level categories. Anything above a certain prestige level gives the highest bonus, then the only pissing contest is of the honor of the title. So if footfall is only a small % different at higher levels, its not op.
You’re so worried about the chump change being op or p2w that you miss the principle and are overly worried about the letter of the law describing p2w. What would your complaint be next if they locked all plots to be exactly limited the same, and someone was able to produce more gold plating and decorate with more diamonds than you and still have more prestige than you? It’s the items not the plots. If they can out do you anyway with prestige, it won’t matter if they have more plots.
There is enough plots in the game for everyone, that if you can play enough mine enough hunt enough gather enough, you can out prestige someone with twice the plots.
I wouldn’t doubt that there are a lot of people like you. Money in game means various things to people and to some nothing at all. I think you really show how it isn’t that relevant to the game and more is just a hold over from a previous decision for ways to generate income when the economy wasn’t really there. It is time to revamp and remove it and bring in a true economy and job/contract system.
That is why I think we should separate both systems. There are plenty of way to make income currently in the game via level gaining and if you wish to run a shop or sell things. Plot income is not needed and either is just an extra bit for those not selling something and a major income for those that build. So find a way to move the build income to that of services or something that is part of a true economy. That allows us to remove footfall and tax income and completely delinks the P2W part of the plot = income model.
Don’t be dogmatic in a one way thought process for a solution. You allowed yourself to believe that this ONLY solution of ridding us of our failed op p2w footfall plots, is the only way, and then to revamp the economy with your build.
I say your footfall fight is a losing battle to everyone that loves what the devs have just done with it, that encourages people who want some, to build and not be lazy , and come get some. I would let go this fight for deleting footfall.
is it still ten per level though? Like is the amount of plots per level still 10 if bough with qbits?
Blockquote the amount of plots in a beacon does not matter if the content inside is the same, so number of plots wouldn’t separate the rich from the poor any further than just playing the game does.
The only part I disagree with on this is that the number of plots does increase the opportunity for income. Yes, you do still need to actually use those plots constructively if your goal is to get income from prestige and footfall. It’s not automatic, however, if player A has 20 plots and makes the best use of those 20 plots and player B has 1000 plots and makes the best use (I feel like I’m back in court arguing about eminent domain lol) of those 1000 plots then economically player A has been crushed even though they did the best possible job with their plots with equal skill that player B has. So, @Xaldafax does win that one.
Blockquote what? communism much?
I fully disagree with this one. I know a lot of players don’t care about plots, some people are happy living in a tiny hole in the ground. they enjoy hunting or selling their stuff instead of storing it. whatever… they don’t need plots. I know I would like to have a lot more, whereas on my alt, I could care less if he has 5 plots.
plus, people have already paid for perks in those packages. some people bought some of them specifically for the plots. I think there would be a lot of uproar if they removed any of those, I am glad founders perks are going to be valid through the existence of the game.
I agree with this. lol You made the same point I tried to make the other day and someone got upset. Those founders benefits are a matter of contract. They are just like veterans benefits in countries like the U.S. that have them. They are in the contract that began time in the military to entice the person to join or they are in the contract to entice people to become founders. Once the bargain has been made (the benefits of founder from Wonderstruck in exchange for the money from the founder) then it’s a valid contract. Whether anyone likes that contract that was not part of it or not is irrelevant. The contract is valid as it meets all the requirements of a legal contract (for whoever tried to argue with me about that and impress me with their great knowledge from “a decade and a half of playing online” lol … sorry, I’m not impressed. I have been playing online since the early 80’s long before Windows existed and ran my own BBS and network with over 125 games available on it and I have a juris doctorate. Just thought I would mention that in case whoever it was is impressed with themselves causing me to be silent. lol). So, the end result is that contract already exists and is enforceable. Like it or not people that spent $30 are not going to suddenly have the exact same benefits as people that spent $1000 or whatever for a higher tier with different benefits. No point in arguing that one whether you are for or against it. @james and company made the only correct call possible on that point. Personally, I’m glad there are benefits that have caused people to help create the game through time and money and giving feedback. It’s created a pretty darn good game and people are arguing about the minor details now. Without the benefits enticing people to part with more money upgrading, we might not even have this forum today. So, I’ll always be glad the offer was made by Wonderstruck and accepted by so many wonderful people… including @Karko
Peace to all…
Whether you think it’s pay to win or not, having the ability to throw down $10 to ultimately get more plots to create more of a buffer zone around my main projects is nice. If someone is buying them for footfall coin, they will most likely be very disappointed.
If nobody is visiting your plotted area, then it doesn’t matter if you have 500 plots or 1500 plots. You most likely are going to get around the same amount of footfall if nobody is going there.
The other thing is, even if a new person looking at Boundless for the first time discovers how you can buy plots, this doesn’t mean that person is instantly going to think its P2W. They automatically lack the experience of playing the game and knowing how the economy works, how you get items, how plots are meant to protect project builds, etc. They lack the context and insight to make any sort of actual real conclusion on it.
This whole argument that buying plots is P2W seems very much like “the sky is falling” mentality. There’s a lot that goes into having a settlement that generates a decent amount of footfall. I am sure @the-moebius can testify to the effort him and those that have worked on Aquatopia that the city’s footfall generation for people’s shop stands is so high because the city is a well traveled place and offers a lot of features that drive traffic to other people’s places. It’s why it’s so highly visited every day.
What seems to be the case is this assumption that everyone is going to automatically go after more plots. That’s like saying everyone is going to be a miner because it’s so much more profitable than any other gathering activity in the game. We already have many instances where that isn’t the case.
Yes, we think the same as far as footfall. I really don’t see it as a major issue (or even a minor one to me). It’s only purpose appears to be to make certain people wealthy by creating a competitition when there didn’t need to be one. I assume the cause was builders saying they want a reward for building other than the fun and satisfaction they have building. It’s a mystery to me why so many people always seem to turn games into a second job with cutthroat competition. I guess they never had enough competition in RL to get tired of it and want a chance to relax. The same arguement basically exists with the prestige thing. Some I guess fight that battle for the recognition and fame they perceive they get. Others appear from comments to fight that game for the wealth it will bring them from taxes etc. I suppose some have not accomplished enough in life to not be impressed with those things in a game. The best advice I can give on that since some vocal people (forums are rather self-selecting of vocal people by nature) will always find ways to argue about who has the bigger and better … ummm… whatever… is just ignore them and their side game. Do what you enjoy and either forget about the forums while playing and just enjoy the game like me, or, if you can’t do that then I would avoid the forums. Personally I would miss you if you chose that one @Xaldafax and I hope to see you much more here or in the game. You keep life interesting and are thoughtful and intelligent as well as nice. It takes all kinds to make the world go round and you are one of the best types (along with many other great people in here on all sides of the issues… @Zina @Creegle @Stretchious @james @PendragonTheNinja @Havok40k @Karko etc. etc. We are all better knowing each of you.
I didn’t want to participate in any of the previous drama posts until a Dev replies. I have known these people since we were orange cuboids running around the place. I never thought they would do anything to harm all the hard work they put in the game, nor harm the beautiful community the game attracted.
I was right. The micro-transaction system seems very fair and something that many people, including myself would probably take part in.
I learned in my life not to get myself involved in any time wasting drama regarding any aspect in life, until the source emerges to talk or explain their actions. After that, you can do whatever you want.
Thank you @james and all the awesome staff at Wonderstruck.
They already stated the overruling principle. Footfall is not meant to be the staple income.
YES technically the letter of the law shows an advantage. One with more plots technically some year from now, could possibly have more prestige. But your looking at prestige bonus on footfall like it’s the economy/endgame winning booster.
Footfall coin is a REWARD to encourage creative building in this crafting game. You will not get FOOTFALL because you have prestige. NOT p2w. You get footfall because you made something worth it for people to see. Higher prestige comes from your personal building materials. Lets looks at that higher prestige boost to footfall coin now, and what it would take to prove one makes more, so much more you call it p2"win".
Because you can’t put player A and player B on a static measurable repeatable scale, because of difference in taste in architecture, art, design, planet choice, location choice, aesthetics, lighting, shops, statues, supply demand, you will never actually see a p2w scenario play out in boundless over plots to footfall. Even though it could read that one has a potential gain(tiny) over the other, doesn’t mean one will EVER see a difference in income because of that one gain. Too many variables make it impossible. Also the prestige bonus would have to be much higher at max, than second place. It’s not.
Best example I can think of that puts it in perspective. Slyduda will make more money than most people, (in footfall) who have more plots than him, more prestige than him, because he has a better reason for people to pass his beacon than most. I think there is a reward earned by being this creative than people fighting over if its p2w who are not making as much, because of their own taste, decor, location, lighting, shops, statues etc. and can’t actually prove it’s because of an unfair advantage on the highest level 90% of the players will never see anyway. Because there are so many choices that combat getting more footfall than someone else, I believe is why James said They do not consider this a p2w option. Your not winning.
Real money transactions are intended for 1.0 and beyond. We will make the exchange available for testing purposes before 1.0 but no real money transactions will occurs.
I’m fairly confident that when this system goes live the number of empty plots will not increase the footfall/prestige. The footfall system is still being experimented on so please be aware that we are looking into this and will make changes as needed.
That’s very fair towards players that can’t afford to spend money, but I’d love to see more options that would allow the same grind skip as Warframe does but can’t really put it in proper proposition and not affend No-P2W people.
Maybe rented worlds would be solution for having custom difficulty or something that would cut the time needed to mine resources or to mine out underground spaces for building. I’d love to do some underground projects (after 1.0) but don’t see I’ll ever have time for that.
Obviously the idea of purchasing plots is a sensitive subject for many people. As someone that wants to focus on building, I would like the option (even if I do not exercise it) to acquire more plots. That can allow me to protect areas around my build from strip mining and some of the other issues that I have dealt with in game. IF, that it is important enough to me to purchase the plots or invest my qbits in plots versus some of the other items @james mentioned, then I can do that under the current proposal.
The ability to generate coin is part of the game. If you look at the various classes, Hunters, Gatherers, and Crafters all produce items through drops or other means that can be sold in or to a market. Builders need a way to generate coin. I believe that is the reason for footfall. If Builders cannot generate coin through footfall then they have to also engage in one of the other roles in order to make coin. The only issue I see with footfall, is that you have to have a reason for people to cross your plots. Currently that seems to be people going to portals, going to their own build, or visiting a market. Prestige alone does not guarantee footfall. My belief is that a large number of plots does not automatically equal footfall and guarantee income from footfall.
I can see one way that more plots does offer a way to generate income. If I go to an already established city, with enough plots I can become the mayor. If the current mayor has 100 plots invested in the city and I come in and lay down 200 and fill them with high prestige blocks, then I am the mayor. If I understand some of the mechanics, the mayor does get a percentage of the footfall and tax generated by the settlement. Please correct me if this is wrong or has changed. If I do this in the city that is the capital then I get a percentage of the tax generated from the planet. If the planet has an active player base with markets then this can generate a decent amount of coin. Is this P2W? I guess that depends on how you look at the game. My perspective is that currently there is no end game so there is no win. It does mean that more plots can be used to create a certain advantage, but I am not sure that it is game breaking.
I do have a question for the developers. @james You have said the idea is that you will get qbit as you level, does this also apply after level 50? And if so, does this mean you can now invest your qbits in plots after level 50? (please say yes!)
Also, will we retrospectively receive qbits for levels already gained past 50?
Beyond coin there is something that is being overlooked. Let’s say hypothetically, there were rewards implemented that were ONLY accessible by being the mayor or viceroy. Example, A totally rad skin, or perhaps some sick mount you got to ride around on. Can you imagine the intensity of a prestige war under those circumstances? Thus the desire to pay more to get more plots?
Also, you can keep upping the requirements for prestige all you like it won’t change the war, just the amount of work it takes to wage it, same applies for footfall. Whether its an empty plot, a plot with 5000 worth of decorative brick, a plot with brick that I then chisel, a plot I lay down three types of blocks and chisel and hop on one foot while scratching my head and rubbing my belly at the same time. That will still be the path to control and the associated benefits.
I mean hypothetically they could give free invulnerability items to VIP members, or let them have infinite blocks. That doesn’t mean health and blocks are bad features. That just means the hypothetical idea is ridiculous.