Footfall Redux


#201

I think it’s one of those things you may not notice too much before you get “featured”.

This is basically a thing since I showed up to the forum in january at least.


#202

There’s been posts about footfall issues since pretty much the start. :sweat_smile: I also usually find people to avoid because of how hostile they become about this topic. A lot of times they are good at hiding it but there’s usually a subtle tell


#203

Kaplah, footfall has been a problem since the games release. This is why I say slides are the current symptom. It’ll be something else in another month as people get more creative with ways to maximize footfall.

I look at the footfall discussion differently because I noticed how broken it was when I first started playing , outlined why it was broken and why I was going to maximize/exploit the mechanic. I was called entitled and all sorts of silliness but that wasn’t stopping me from using the game mechanics to get a leg up, like others had creatively done before I started playing.

So because of that I don’t fault anyone who is doing it now. I fully understand the reasoning behind it. People don’t do it out of malice but to make the game more enjoyable for themselves. That’s not lost on me.

However I don’t think that should keep us as a community from admitting there’s a problem in that and working together to find a solution so help the game grow bigger and better.

@Firehazurd took the time to put down an outline for a potential new system for footfall. While I don’t agree with a lot of it, there were some things I did like about it. I personally want to support all kinds of new ideas to fix the current system. If the devs did not perceive the system as broken, I agree this would be a waste of time to do, but they acknowledge and I think it is silly of us as a community to ignore that only because we can benefit from something ourselves.

Let’s work together to make Boundless better for the next wave of new players :slightly_smiling_face:


#204

I confirmed today on a call that how FF is being used today wasn’t not the intended or expected response to them releasing the system they did. This is not the exact quote because I won’t speak for them and can’t explain the deeper conversation we had because it would be out of context of the larger points we talked about.

All I know that there is no better answer available at this point but things are being considered. Also I know that we as a community should keep supporting people that come up with ideas on how to fix the problem. The devs WANT ideas of all types on how to solve things in the game that might not be working as intended.

Lastly, considering the environment and larger context of the discussion I’d caution people that try to game the system and push the meta to optimize every coin they can get. That will likely hurt us all and the FF mechanic more than any person providing ideas on solutions no matter how extreme because it is seen as not using a game mechanic in the way it was intended.


#205

@anon67769248 First, thanks for shopping at my shops! The Witches Brew is my baby, and one of the few shops that has been there since launch. I work super hard to keep it going. Second, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the guild buffs being too expensive. The cost of running a guild for me costs (buffs/Oort) around 500 coin per week. And that is choosing my buff levels conservatively. My co-ops only made about 130k coin this week. Buffs are 190k and Oort is 250k.

I looked at the co-ops as a way to help others earn and at the same time create a system that would allow the guild to pay for itself.

Lastly, I know myself, and I’m going to take liberty for speaking for my friend, Kaplah… it does seem like our builds in particular are being called out. Offense is being taken because of the builds being called ugly and ghetto (last weeks post) and the huge expense of building what we see as a “community” driven effort and with good intentions which were the backbone of the intention behind the whole co-op idea, in the first place. Today’s post is just more of the same and it’s irritating.

At the same time other, so called footfall traps, are not in question at all. Every Hub is a Footfall trap. Ultima, PS, Hubbit… all do the same thing and the coin generated hopefully gets used somewhere for the community… I’ve seen where everyone’s donated Oort goes and it’s not just for portals… Every mall is a Footfall trap… fake stores with fake shop stands and portals to take to to the “main shop”… it’s a trap. One of the newest malls (I won’t name names) is one of the biggest footfall traps I have ever seen… yet, no one complains about them, likely because they just are not paying attention… Hunting platforms? Yep! Footfall trap! (And I personally love those speed hunts, btw.)

I’m all for the devs giving an alternate form of coin generation. Give me daily quests… give us guild quests so our members can work for the guild. Make guild buffs half the price… I don’t know… all I do know is the builds are legitimate, no one has an added advantage, and like Kaplah, I get thanked daily for the Co-ops. And in turn, I thank each person who runs them.

iLLumiNaughty has space in their slide if anyone is interested, by the way! :nerd_face:


#206

Everything you said is spot on! This is why I think a few of us constantly chime in on this topic when it comes up because it manifests in different ways all the time. I pitched a pretty hard fit about hubs back in October? when I first started playing. The traps have manifested in totally different ways since then.

Thank you so much for putting so many of them down in to one post! There is a difference in builders being rewarded small amount of footfall as intended and builds exploiting the mechanic itself, and you’ve concisely listed several of them, quite fairly I might add!

It ties in very well with the comment @Xaldafax just made about cautioning folks who push this mechanic so far. I’m speculating on this of course but it worries me that this continues to get pushed to a new level each time and the devs didn’t intend this. The worst case scenario is they end up gutting the mechanic down the road and that sucks for everyone.

The whole hub conversation is something I’ve said my fill on months ago. People used to complain it costs so much to pay for oortstones, now they get it donated for free and still get that footfall? Seems pretty funny looking back at those people and their positions on hubs now. It was blatantly obvious. But now we’re getting in to a different topic of whether hubs should be a luxury or a necessity to Boundless. :man_shrugging::joy:


#207

If they had not nerfed the xp for rock crafting I would think this was not a possibility. But since they did when they felt it was being abused, I would agree players might end up with unintended consequences if the developers feel the footfall mechanic is being abused.


#208

100% agree

it has already happned in the past at times when the abuse reached its peak first was the bomb nerf when bomb forgeing became the new norm then prestige nerf when gleam towers and gem vaults where beening used in evey major city then the XP/teaching pie nerf when the info of how to do it started circulating and now coming to a theatre near you FF nerf cuz people are starting to spam slides and co-ops.

it may happen if the abuse keeps ramping up maybe not till we get farming but im willing to bet on it.


#209

The only difference between slides/co-ops is the name. Every mall, hub, city is a Footfall trap. People just have an issue with calling it what it is.


#210

I think the buffs probably are not expensive enough.

I also think the community needs to remove their entitled expectation that everyone is allowed and should have these buffs. That incessant need to “have” the buff makes them decided to do things that compromise game intended game mechanics to get the coin instead of working for it in the intended way.

Just because it is there doesn’t mean you have to do anything and everything you can to achieve it. Maybe follow the model that was intended by the developers to get it.

More and more it seems the problem with the game isn’t the game mechanics and what the developers put in place as much as it is the people that decide “how” they wish to play those mechanics and the problems those decisions cause for all of us both in game and with resulting developer changes…

I don’t think it is fair to generalize all things as footfall traps. That is trying to over simplify the problem and distract from the key components that footfall traps have, which is a fake area to funnel FF, etc.

Most of us are using footfall trap and probably should not. In fact it is more a footfall game mechanics exploit being defined as such because thing are being done to exploit the most reward out of the mechanic – e.g. creative plotting to maximize FF gains, “community” defined events to funnel people through areas to maximize FF gains, creative building to maximize FF gains, etc. That is what people are talking about and many feel is not what was intended by the original FF mechanic.

So trying to redefine the term footfall trap will not work in the way you are intending. The argument will fail and not sway those people that truly understand the nuance of what is trying to be discussed here. The initial hubs were not footfall traps - true. Most are not footfall traps now because they have portals. Many are now instead footfall exploits.

I am sure this will cause many to not be happy with that term. But I am pretty clear above as to the type of exploit I am talking about versus the hacking exploit that could be inferred - which I am not.


#211

I think the reason we refer to them as footfall traps as if you want to be as efficient as the next person and not waste your resources then you need to use the hub.

If you want to go to a shop to buy goods, you have to go to these malls.

If you want to efficiently hunt, you have to platform (which is used to trigger lvl 6 meteors and this is an entirely different discussion on devs intentions and players expectations)

So in essence you are trapped in to providing footfall if you want to take part in those activities.

As I have always understood it, footfall was meant to reward builders who built wonderful builds and attract people to come look at them, thereby generating footfall.

This is why I think @Firehazurd idea here overall is a great idea. Those who want to generate footfall with their income need to actively take care of their projects. If they are just providing the build as a functional use to the community then they could opt out of the repair function and also give up the footfall associated with that.

Does this mean some hubs and malls and other things would shutter because they built something with out that intent? Then I honestly don’t think that’s bad for Boundless as it decreases a lot of this silliness of pushing the limits of the mechanic. I don’t think fires idea is perfect but it’s the closest to a happy medium has come up with so far.

The bigger problem is any kind of fix to footfall is likely to drive away players which the game can not afford but at the same time the game can’t grow explosively without addressing the problem.

So what are we left with? Leave it as is and hope the game grows and deals with the existing system and problems ok or deal with it together? You suggest getting away from calling it a footfall trap lump some, how do we change that term in the context of the current problem? Is there a better way to describe this?

Edit: I also realized I had a solution to feeding beacons repair blocks, instead of the exact materials used in your builds, perhaps each tier of prestige would use a specific recipe to craft/sale that you could feed the beacon to repair it. Maybe this could be from inorganic / organic farming coming up? Totally new items used with out messing with the existing item base and creating fluctuations in those markets, unless perhaps some of those items could use more value? I’m not sure. Just an idea though to some folks who disliked the idea of having to use the exact mats to repair as what you built with.


#212

If it’s beaconed in more than one toon, it’s in the same ballpark. The co-ops have shops… are they an exploit? Is a mall an exploit?

Maybe I’m naive, but I’m curious what guild you are in when you say not all guilds should expect to have buffs? What sets guilds apart? And what gives the “Haves” the right to afford guild buffs while judging the “Have Nots” for an opportunity to find a creative way to fund them? How can you call it an exploit? No one profits without effort.

There can only be so many hubs… there can only be so many malls. In real life, people CO-OPERATE to find solutions.

With all due respect your post sounded very elitist and not very community minded. My guild has no factions… we don’t get all maxed buffs each week. We are not as big as PS or Ultima, but we’re not the smallest either… so how and why because two main guilds jumped on the hub idea first are they more worthy? I can think of far too many dead hubs who are just as deserving.

Co-ops and slides are simply creative ways to be Boundless. I’ve said it before, people play in a myriad of ways. Some play to be highest prestige on their planet, or universe… some play to run free, some play to build and some play to mine or hunt. The game is called BOUNDLESS. Let people play the game… if you don’t like it… don’t worry, eventually the beacons will die.


#213

NO NO NO.

If they were to add this feature as you have laid it out I would quit this game in 20 seconds. I have way too many things to do now without having to worry about my buildings or roads falling apart in need of repair only because I want a little bit of money in my pocket so I can build more stuff. If I opt out of it I get no money. Sorry I do not in anyway support this idea sorry.

and just to put it into context for you I was in the alpha and a Chieftain level founder backer.


#214

Firstly, sorry for being unable to keep up with this thread! It’s crazy! But I did have to sleep eventually.

Secondly, @ginabean and @Kaplah, I’m not trying to suggest slides be penalized, or even removed. Only that the door be opened to allow for the gamification and monetization of footfall. To open it up and increase the scaling to be dramatically more lucrative than today. Slides could totally be valid in this world, but odds are you’d be able to make more money with smaller high prestige builds instead.

Once I accepted that my idea was to open it up and gameify it, I had to introduce a balance, an intake, and that’s where wear came in. I’m basically proposing a transit/tourism game mechanic that allows us to make way more money as long as we’re willing to engage with the game.

I’m sorry that your slides are getting heat, and there are several around a city I’ve been building for months, but my ultimate point is that if we are going to work around the system to make money on ff, the game should just lean in to it and make it full fledged game system. As opposed to “I hate slides, mrrarr”


#215

But here’s the thing you guys were talking about slides and stuff and changing football alright here’s a better thought why don’t we let the Developers work on things that are more meaningful to the game rather Reinventing the wheel. They’re working on the farming they’re working on rental planet they’re working on special features on the planets maybe Titans xcetera all sorts of other stuff that I would say they are much better off working on and worrying about how much footfall people are getting.


#216

Well this thread has gotten more attention than the suggestion that basically describes exo worlds as they exist today, and the suggestion that talked about buff Bombs largely as the exist now, so I think it’s more meaningful than you might be giving it credit for.

If it were just me arguing against the world, then that’d be one thing. But it’s not, there is clearly some work that needs to be done. That’s all.


#217

The devs have quite literally stated the system is broken and want input on how to fix it. That’s why we are having the discussion.

Would you rather they change it, like @loadkill showed in several examples without a lot of community input or for their hands to be forced in to a fix no one agree with but the only avenue the devs see fit as a result of the community unable to come together to help address the problem?


#218

yes and also like in real life if that solution is to say expoit a loophole then governments close that loophole

can we please stop useing the name of the game to say let people do whatever they want by that logic then i shod be allowed to make a mod that reads the game traffic to allow me to ESP gems and other rare resources mods are allowed in the game and im just being boundless


#219

Speaking of mods… why is no one talking about the mechanics and edge PC players have over PS4 players? Turning off the grass feature sure makes inky leaf farming easier… The shop scanner is not something that players use intuitively in the game, and for PC players it’s a lot easier to access. I’ve requested my shop scanned a couple weeks now and I think the request is still active… yet if I was a PC player I could scan myself…

There are a lot of things the devs should work on before overhauling the footfall system again… which I will add, hurt my store FF by sooooo much, I was in a way forced to find a unique way of making up for the losses.

I bring the name of the game into it, because of what I mentioned. There are a lot of ways to play the game. With that come many different lenses to view each our own bias. I appreciate the conversation, though.


#220

This exact reason right here is what James has said footfall was never intended to be though. That is that post I initially responded to you with. I 100% understand what you’re talking about it, as I outlined how and why I did it myself.

So if we accept the fact that footfall should not be where we get the majority of our generated money from, and look to what was supposed to be that coin tap, we see as James states that was intended to be the feats and what not, your daily activities. He suggests championing buffs/fixes to that system, at least as I read it, so that people don’t feel the need to game the footfall system.

So knowing that, and ignoring the issue of gimmicky footfall builds, how do we address the log in/ feat reward system? That’s probably a totally new topic or I may misunderstand that post entirely I which case if someone would explain how they understand that post I would appreciate it as I often, it seems, look at things from a different angle than other.