Let's discuss rarity and return on investment

In this thread, I’m collating a few recent comments I have read from veterans and new players alike into one convenient thread for discussion and suggestions on the broad topic of grind, but specifically pertaining to the forced “rarity” of many aspects of Boundless from colors to crafting materials and farmables.

1) Forced color rarity

I understand why this decision was made- I perfectly well remember the excitement and prestige that came about from the rarity of red gleam in Beta Boundless. But, I also remember that it was largely acceptable to use as a building material inpart due to a counterfeiting bug that allowed one to convert common cream gleam into the rare red gleam, so long as you had a block of red to replicate to begin with. Much of the community wanted to continue chasing that high of perceived prestige by supporting future color rarity in 1.0, and the devs politely obliged. Now though, that rarity is an impediment to creativity, and our only way to get around it is with costly investment of time with a complex system of color morphing with materials that rapidly deplete in order to color just a few blocks of common materials. This loop is simply not fun. While the game needs prestigious materials, it does not need to restrict half of the color spectrum behind a massive grind wall for the sake of artificial prestige. Be it red gleam, cream gleam, or black gleam, it should be the material itself that is prestigious, not the color - especially when it comes to popular building materials and their recipes!

2) Lack of actual rarity

As for those things that Boundless actually considers rare, exotic animal drops and lucent gems, its difficult to really consider these things truly rare. There is certainly a relatively high bar to be crossed to gain access to these materials, but once you’re on a proper exo-world and assuming you arrive early, one can pull several stacks of lucent gems in just a few hours. I’ve seen examples of entire portal hubs guilded in blink and rift and umbris while its citizens run about with full sets of lucent crafted gear. This gear is costly, but not rare in the traditional sense.

3) Poor return on time investment. Low yields, high effort farming.

This is another topic that I totally understand why it is done the way it is. I even advocated for this model to some degree. In order to prevent farming yields from becoming super-saturated, yields on crops have been set deliberately low. This in my mind is still sound logic, and makes sense to me for the most part, HOWEVER - negative and zero net returns suck. Seed and crop yields need a rebalance, particularly regarding higher tier crops. I get the intended game play loop- gather wild materials, bring them home to farm, replant, and farm again until eventually you exhaust the returns on your original crop, then its time to go back and farm more wild seed, or buy it at market. Worse still is goo, which simple can’t be made sustainable, and have to start over from square 1 every time you exhausted your supply of a specific color. The problem is, this game loop is not fun, and not worth the time and effort invested. Even the market value for these items is poor, and few players are willing to put in the effort for minimal return. Please, eliminate these poor returns! Goo farming especially should have dramatically increased returns, as its our only solution currently to overcome the forced color rarity of many common materials.

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Prices of things are decided by players though.
If some players give less value to their time and decide to price their goo/pigments/paint lower is their own decision. I personally always considered the whole goo farming to be a long process to go through and it takes a lot of time and investment so I have kept my prices on the higher end of the market.

But we can’t decide what other players do! :slight_smile:

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I’d counter that prices are decided by the market. If one put the cost for the time they invested in something, it will likely not sell or be dramatically undercut by others. Thus, the market sets the value, and the player must listen to the market, or price themselves out of a sale entirely.

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The way I see it is that I price things at what I consider to be a fair price. I look at the market price and more often than not I agree with the average price and I use that. But if I feel like things are worth more, I have no issue pricing it higher and having the stock waiting in my shopstands.
The first pigments I sold, I sold them at like 3k each. It was before the beautiful boxes and I was using shopstands as storage and had put a price just so that I could see the pigments on top. Never would I have thought that someone would pay that price. But someone did!

Now I have a store with a lot of pigments for sale. All at the same price of 125c. Sometimes I make a few sales. Sometimes it can go a bit of time without making any. And I’m fine with that :slight_smile:
I would never be ok with selling the pigments/paint anywhere under 100c each. But some people do and there’s nothing I can do about it and as long as they are happy doing it, well I’m very happy for them! :slight_smile:

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The market is decided by players. If market prices for something are low it reflects that lots of people are willing to do it, or that the people who want that something don’t have a lot of coin they are willing to spend.

If you want goo and the market value is low that’s a good situation for you, since you can just buy the goo.

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I do totally understand how economy works, I’ve been here longer than… well, longer than almost everyone! And while I would enjoy a long philosophical discussion on the ins and outs of the Boundless economy, I want to stay focused on the original topic. Should anything, especially goo, require so much investment for such low returns? I imagine you two do get some satisfaction from it, but it seems to me that the wider community feels it is unrewarding and tedious while at the same time being a high barrier to creative expression. There is no technical reason why coloring something should be difficult, and no economic reason for forced rarity, so why make it so difficult and tedious? The entire community benefits from improvements to goo farming. :slight_smile:

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Oh I 100% agree with you about colors and their rarity and the frustration of it all. You can see the post about lack of new colors in exoworlds :slight_smile:
Sorry for the sidebar.
I do agree that the yields are horrible and could be improved majorly

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I always support higher yields and returns, particularly in crafting. Unfortunately these posts tend to get railroaded by narrow-minded arguments about how the economy will react. One thing everyone needs to understand is that the economy in game will never reflect a real world economy. I’ll spare you the list of existential facts of the matter and leave it at this: The economy adapts to changes and we get used to them and forget how it was before. Economy shouldn’t be taken into account because it’s constantly changing as it is affected by thousands of variables.

So on-topic, I think return on investment could be solved by increased yield on mass crafting. I was sad to see my post on this ripped apart by cynics with random, off-topic replies. The idea is to keep all block-based recipes the same (50/mass) but increase the output for crafting mats like bonding agents, pigments, ink, etc.

WHY NOT? The classic ‘I enjoy the grind’ argument to this question boggles my mind. You don’t have to grind less, you just get to spend less time on each surface mat if you have a desired ultimate quantity of the craftable you are gathering for. Mining, digging, and chopping blocks got an early upgrade with AOE tools. Seriously, is anyone complaining about that? Surely some people thought it would “break the game” before but now we’re all happier for it and I don’t mind mining so much considering I can get a build’s worth of rocks in less than an hour… but gathering surface mats is painful and needs an upgrade. In lieu of an upgrade to gathering, why not just upgrade the crafting value of the mats?

“Boy, I’m happy I finally finished crafting the 20,000 units of bonding agent I need for my next build, but I wish it took twice as long to gather the mats!” - No one, ever

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I just want to note that this is also like real world economies, and the arguments in your anecdote parallel arguments against automation. Automation has been disrupting the economy for many years, but the market adapts. (though that’s arguably a bad example, since automation is part of the cause of consolidation of wealth, but you get the idea)

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For gleam, there have been 103 unique gleam colors out of the possible 255 from EXOs and perma planets. I haven’t done similar research into rock/stone or soils, sand and gravel but I’d assume we are in a similar boat? So half is a generous approximation for availability.

I agree this is an issue but don’t see a solution. Maybe have cosmetic item tokens drop from meteors or critters that are unique(not purchasable via cubits) to where they are found. For example get a Hopper mask as a 1/20,000 drop from killing a Hopper. Or a hammer tattoo token that is a 1/1,000 chance from breaking a hammer. Let them be tradable so you don’t get sucked into a grind you don’t want to do for a reward you’d like to have.

You could also have blocks and consumables drop in a similar fashion.

The sustainability factory is what turned me off of farming all together. I didn’t expect the seed rate and yield rates would be as complex of a system as what we got. I like the planted in, near, and irrigated by system very much, but wish the seed/yield rates didn’t clash so hard. They either need adjusting or add “-plant name- substrate” which is optimal plant bedding that provides at a minimum 105% seeds and yeild. Make it expensive af if that’s what it takes, but we should be able to sustainably farm.

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That’s a great analogy for that point. I know how to decipher analogies for their true value :nerd_face: but apparently that’s a rare talent. Basically, a change occurs, the effects gradually roll out in waves, then our lives change without us even realizing. Our efforts simply shift to the new point of balance in our ambitions.

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Invention of computers or the internet or the airplane could be examples

Telegraph operators all lost their jobs when the internet can out

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Having rewards be soulbound is important for this kind of trophy reward. If you want to prove you are the best warrior by having the ultimate warrior mask, you better go kill stuff. Allowing trading of these rewards causes them to lose value over time, since extremely experienced players will accrue surplus.

Better get some RNG insurance for that drop rate. A token system is my preferred form of RNG insurance. 1/10 chance to drop, but requires 2000 tokens to make. You can also do an Ultimate Warrior mask. This one requires 4000 tokens from each of the monster types. Then there is the Ultimate Game Master mask that takes 10k of each token from each profession type. That one might require the tokens to be account bound rather than soulbound, though.

Those examples are highlighting new, better industries replacing old ones. Effects of increasing yields is more like the invention of the assembly line, which resulted in greater yields of the same product. It would be like our crafting machines were upgraded to make more efficient use of the raw mats they’re fed and with less waste.

Maybe a 2nd tier of crafting machines would make sense of it? I certainly won’t push that as a requirement but I wouldn’t be too upset if that’s what it came down to.

I think some leaderboards on each planet would be a decent compromise. For creatures killed, meteors completed, most deaths, farthest distance flung, etc. I’d also like to see some tradeable collectibles earned from really hard feats or achievements (some really hard feats or achievements would be cool too) or found hidden on exos.

As for crop yields - yeah, some are just not fun. I won’t touch goo until it’s made sustainable and paint has an upgrade to spray more than one block, lol.

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Invention of shrink wrap

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Is this token limited to a specific items or are we adding a store system? If it’s specific to an item, how many Pokemon cards am I going to have to store in my base? This would greatly increase the cluttler associated with meteor hunting and some people grinding tons of a specific item might not enjoy that.

Preferably, you would be able to handcraft 100 of them into a super token. Also, all of the tokens of a tier should stack like shards do.

I mean… ideally they would be a currency that doesn’t take up inventory space, but that has a higher dev cost, what with the need for new UI elements rather than just new items, drop tables, and recipes.