While I agree with everything else too, this in particular seems to be at the heart of the matter. Reaching the right level of challenge is a balance that won’t come out to everyone’s satisfaction.
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I keep thinking this as well. There’s no point in them spending their precious money on advertising when the game is (at it’s core) unfinished. It needs to get Titans and more mobs and moving parts/redstone type building tools. Then they can spend money Actually marketing the game I feel like.
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I don’t know that I would call the game unfinished but I do see the wisdom in an open beta that lasts a couple of years. I have always been confused by their marketing strategy but this theory would explain it.
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I’ve seen this argument, and even used to make it myself. However, I think:
A) base game is losing players who find it too grindy, and a lot would go to creative mode rather than quitting
B) all the amazing builds you see on Minecraft YouTube are from creative mode, BL needs the same thing
C) Minecraft players who have been waiting for a year for creative mode might actually play boundless
In the end I think a lot would go to creative mode, but “base game” would get a lot of new players too, through increased interest in the game.
Anyway, I don’t see creative mode happening till 2021 so…
I agree. But more so, the existing game wouldn’t really work if there were 500 planets, or 5000. At some point this will have to be addressed.
Pretty sure James has never openly addressed any of this @Cuetzpalomitl
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No again I do not miss the point, why is the fact it takes 3 hours to get 6000 rocks more of a challenge than getting 12000 rock in the same time frame. All that does is show players that have more time can mine more stuff (which is always the case anyway). Why is it more challenging to get 200 brick from a mass craft than getting 400 from a mass craft? I see no challenge in either of those. I can craft anything my skill level lets me craft and so can a lot of other players. So where exactly does challenge even come into this? Where you want to use the phrase “making it easier” I prefer using the word balance. How about making it so that players can spend the same time building that they do in getting the materials.
Ok fine then lets just agree that we will never agree on the definition of challenge as it applies to Boundless.
Since these stats are pre-humble bumble they may reflect sales but not bundles and if players buy a game and for whatever reason do not play it or do not continue to play it then there is a retention problem and maybe the reviews that complain about how time consuming the game is need to be acknowledged.
No what I am doing is looking at the fact the game is not growing even slowly. So maybe it is currently aimed at to small a potential player base. Any change the developers have made could have negative affects so should they not make them? Look at the drop that came after the bomb mining change. Should they have not made it out of a fear players would leave?
My point was the game is not growing and merely churning a few hundred or even a few thousand players is not growth. So my point had nothing to do with maintaining a small player base. Is your point that the game seems to be maintaining the same level of players. It seems to but that does not fit the developers statement made after launch that they wanted and expected slow growth and not quick growth. No growth is not slow growth.
Since they have never stated this that I can find and it has never come up in any of the calls with the developers, this is all supposition on the part of players. The last statement made that I can find was that they expected Boundless to be a slow growing game. That being said is there some logic to this? Sure if they are expecting to make large changes to the game then it does make sense to not try to bring in a lot of players that are going to be upset when the game they bought changes in meaningful ways. Or to your point they are swamped with issues related to the changes. But if this is the case, why did they participate in the Humble Bumble package?
But it does make me wonder if the reason they are making these changes and thinking about others is because the game is not performing as well with players as they expected. If they game was doing well (meeting the developers expectations). would we be seeing titans next month? Would we already have creative/modded mode universes? Instead we are getting compactness and beacon reclaims. They are addressing player complaints and issues and must feel those are going to have more of an impact than Titans or some of the other features or I would think they would have put them (compactness reclaims) off.
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I definitely agree that their unannounced road map made more sense before humble bundle. I think we all can agree that we are playing a beta/prerelease/early access/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and that the previously stated ~3500 monthly average users is the amount of players James wants for this beta.
My best guess is Squeenix pressured/forced them to do humble bundle.
Yup. Still missing the point.
Simple. There’s less time investment to get 400, if a previous MC took 200 but now 400. You’re still confusing challenge with difficulty.
So just argue to get creative mode then. I’m all for creative mode. But don’t turn the main game into creative mode.
You can’t disagree with the literal definition of a word. I reckon there might be some language barrier here. Challenge isn’t directly tied to difficulty.
Anyway, this is my last post. I’ve made my point. You’re devolving into making the same circular arguments over and over, that have already been disproven.
Despite what it looks like, i’m trying to help. I love this game. I want to find a solution. The solution for challenge is simple. Creative mode. It makes both camps happy.
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I don’t think it does. Creative mode is a whole lot of development time down the drain for someone who likes the challenge of the current game. The argument that it will bring more people to the main game might make sense but what makes you think they’ll go to the more challenging survival mode when they came for the huge, epic builds that are so easy to do? It is a difficult sell to pitch a hard mode version when the easy mode is just as simple to attain. It’s a path of least resistance, and I have to think that most people will take the easier route even though they’ll end up becoming bored with the game much sooner.
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I can only speak for myself, but when i played minecraft, i always went survival mode, even for the big builds. Creative targets those who just want to build. Survival targets those that want to build and have a challenge doing so 
OK, maybe there is a language barrier, but since we have come to what a word means then let’s get the definition:
Definition of challenge
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : to dispute especially as being unjust, invalid, or outmoded : impugn new data that challenges old assumptions
2a : to confront or defy boldly : dare he challenged his critics to prove his guilt
b : to call out to duel or combat challenged his rival to a duel
c : to invite into competition he challenged his brother to a tennis match
3 : to question formally the legality or legal qualifications of challenge a juror
4 : to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties she wants a job that will challenge her
5 : to order to halt and prove identity the sentry challenged the stranger
6 : to demand as due or deserved : require an event that challenges explanation
7 : to administer a physiological (see physiological sense 2) and especially an immunologic challenge to (an organism or cell)
1 : to make or present a challenge when the appropriate moment challenged , he was capable of … leadership— C. H. Driver
2 : to take legal exception
challenge
Definition of challenge (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : a stimulating task or problem looking for new challenges
2a : a calling to account or into question : protest a challenge to unauthorized use of public funds
b : an exception taken to a juror before the juror is sworn a challenge of a prospective juror based on a specific cause or reason
c : a questioning of the right or validity of a vote or voter
d : a sentry’s command to halt and prove identity The intruder fled at the sentry’s challenge.
3a : an invitation to compete in a sport He accepted my challenge to a game of chess.
b : a summons (see summons entry 1 sense 2) that is often threatening, provocative, stimulating, or inciting specifically : a summons to a duel to answer an affront
4 : the act or process of provoking or testing physiological activity by exposure to a specific substance especially : a test of immunity by exposure to an antigen
The definition does refer to difficulty and not to time. So I stand by my definition and my questions as to why time alone makes something challenging.
Disproven. . hardly. Just because you do nto agree does not make them invalid any more than your opnions are invalid.
And this does not solve the problem. I am not saying that creative mode is bad, but why is it there some assumption that players want to get everything by spaming it using the cheat menu? Have I said that? Did the OP? No, all that is being asked for is that there be more balance to the game and the game be less grindly.
Building is the only activity in game that does not automatically produce something that can be exchanged for coin. Every activity involves some level of buying or selling unless you want to participate in every other activity, but building produces nothing that can be bought or sold. If you mine or gather you can sell what you get for coin and buy tools. If you hunt you can sell what you get for coin to buy weapons. If you craft you can sell your product for coin to buy ingredients to make more. If you build then you produce nothing to sell so you have to engage in other activities in order to get the materials to build. I am not sure that there is a good way to change that, but if more products were produced from crafting and/or mining/gathering then you could at least spend more time building and less time on other activities.
I do not doubt this, but I will say I am sometimes not sure that you are willing to assume the same motives of other players with different opinions.
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You very conveniently left out the entries that specifically mention mental or physical effort, and testing of one’s abilities. Both which are not solely related to just difficulty. Making something take longer to achieve, is making it more challenging to get as you need to invest more time. Aka effort.
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Anyway, truly my last post on this. You keep mentioning “this will be good for some players”. Yes i get that. I do not dispute that for some people this might feel like a good change. But both of you are completely ignoring the bad that comes with it. You can’t have an argument if you can’t acknowledge both sides. I’ve been doing this. I’ve seen 0 of this from either of you.
Have the thread muted now, feel free to respond but i wont see it.
I resent the implication that I manipulated the definition which I did not. I posted and linked the entire definition. But interesting that the words mental or physical effort are not in there.
Mute all you want. . could not care less and have learned a lesson in engaging with you in any discussions at all.
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This makes it a pretty binary solution doesn’t it? Either challenge or not… when there are actually varying degrees of challenge… it’s not a constant… the level of challenge can be adjusted. It seems that this whole topic is basically just about the balance of the current challenges (not about players wanting to remove any challenge altogether).
If the current balance is not keeping enough people engaged in playing, then there is an issue with how challenging the game is to the mass audience and should probably be looked at and addressed. It’s about finding that sweet-spot between “too easy” and “too hard”.
Just as an aside to this… for those that instantly fall back to the “you want to make this game creative… you should just wait for creative mode”… just bare in mind that Survival Mode is on the cards as well, so that same fallback argument could also be used for you.
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Oh and the survival thing, thats awesome, had no idea that existed! But that could not be used against me as a “just wait for survival”, as i like the game just fine as it is. I like the balance, i don’t need it to be more or less challenging.
Another mode introduced would be great for those that do though!
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I don’t think a complete change is needed for recipes to increase all outputs across the board etc., however, I honestly do think that many of the recipes need a further balance pass, either for output amounts or for the time gates imposed on them.
Simply put, my reasoning behind this is that player input (time) versus output (satisfaction) doesn’t always feel equivalent.
If players, namely those that are builders, are feeling that the material time gates are too long to make it worth their time before they can even start building, they may lose interest (being completely honest, I have in the past - especially with the old marble costs when building a giant Wayfarer’s Totem). This material deficit can’t reasonably be resolved by those players by “just engaging in the economy” and buying their building materials… as builders have no by-product from their trade to sell to others, so they don’t really have a constant viable source of income. Passive footfall is also sporadic and only really benefits those in high-traffic areas - i.e. it doesn’t benefit all builders equally.
I’m going to use a simple example here from my own experience… During a build, I’ve miscalculated the building materials needed and only found right near the end that I needed more of a certain crafted block (I had all the materials needed for crafting that block)… so…
Using an example of “Decorative Metamorphic Rock 2” … a mass craft takes 25 minutes to produce without coils - or 11m 41s with full coils. This is really not comparative to how long it takes to actually build with those materials. You can place and chisel all 50 of them in 3-4 minutes (give or take).
The time gate here, in my opinion, is now a reversal of player challenge… it’s actually no longer a challenge for the player at all… it’s now a challenge for the game to keep me engaged. Do I sit around and wait for the blocks I need… do something else (even though I really only want to build during that session)… or just log off for the night and wait until the next time I can play (I know everyone is different and will have different answers for this… for me, it’s often been a case of just logging off - I’m no longer engaged in the activity I set out to do for that play session).
I understand the need for time gates and certainly don’t want things to be insta-craft… but some of the time limits imposed on some recipes, for me, feel far too long to keep players engaged.
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Crafting times are a common issue I’ve seen too. Rarely bothers me as most of the times I’ve hit a wall building have been either when I have to go back out for mats or when my transform chisels break.
But yea, I would support shorter crafting times because it wouldn’t hurt me or the game at all. Some might call the crafting times a “challenge” that shouldn’t be easier but of course that would be ridiculous 
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This.
Based on my previous complaints about grinding, I’ve been told plenty of times by plenty of people that Creative Mode will be my salvation - but I’ve repeatedly emphasized that I’d be happy to participate in the standard game universe if it just wasn’t SO hard to make everything I want to make.
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I’ve spent the last 6 months building production lines, which revolve around optimizing the crafting times. I can confidently say that they are a challenge 
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That was only meant as a light roast on Sujimichi’s comments that gathering is a challenge, implying that the act of waiting 25 minutes is considered a challenge. All in good fun.
As one of the biggest logistics nerds on earth I respect the hell out of the large workshops I’ve seen. That is a challenge. If I had the need to craft more I would have a lot of fun making a spreadsheet to optimize times, but to craft more would mean to gather more so it is what it is. I’ve gotten by on one powered machine of each type and a couple others for crafts that don’t need spark. Crafting times don’t bother me. I get my logistics fix in Boundless from things like switching to an alt to fill the machines then another alt to do other work while they craft, etc.
If they implemented [complex] automated factories I would be overjoyed. That could change the way I play the game and could even cut another old game out of my repertoire.
Still- if they shortened crafting times or output amount your workshop would still be optimized for efficiency. Just the whole process would be shorter or yield more for you to consume or sell. Outputs of crafting mats would also give you more opportunity to use your optimized workshop.
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