Persisting vs. teaching food


#61

No, not to my knowledge. They have suggested the way forged tools proliferate the universe impact how they do design decisions.

I quite literally posed a question, could persisting pies coupled with the epic skill coupled with forging high durability be adding to an overall bigger picture problem?

The devs are quite likely using exos to garner information on how to better counter how efficient we have become which seems like it was unintended. I don’t know.

I don’t think persisting pies are the root cause by any means, if that was what you were asking me. I think it’s a few things when lined up together impact things. That is why I posted what I did, to see if anyone else saw it that way or if I was completely off base.

Edit: to be clear, I’d never even thought about this until Boundmoore made this post and it got me thinking and theorizing.


#62

I feel like something as controversial as this would require a poll of some sort before the devs would come to a conclusion.

Personally I don’t feel like there is any issue with persisting pies, but I also use them all the time because I hate having my forged tools break. I feel like many people use them to save coin because they are buying their own forged tools or possibly for the same reason as myself.

Adding a numerical cap to the pies just makes the buff feel like an arbitrary number was given to it, and, at least from my perspective, would make it seem more like a knee-jerk reaction than an actual fix to any issues that could actually exist around persisting pies. I personally can’t justify a change like this unless we have a repair stand for our tools.

Also, as mentioned before, the reason for the teaching buff nerfs were due to the exploit where crafters could indefinitely have double XP while crafting/refining rocks, returning to sanctum, and waiting for the crafts to finish. This was never intended, and resulted in the changes to the buff that we now have in game.


#63

The argument that surface gather tools do not get much benefit from persisting is rather terrible. You can 1 shot surface gather with unforged tools as opposed to the max forged tools you need to mine on a T6 and up.


#64

I do not believe they think AOE tools are a problem. I think they are surprised that players are not forging more mid and lower tier tools. This is best shown by the changes they made to forging in a release earlier this year trying to make lower tier tools easier to forge. They may or may not think that there are too many of the high end AOE tools than they had expected, but has been pointed out, the cost to forge lower and higher tier tools seems to make it more efficient to just make the higher tier tools. Maybe they will change the forge again and maybe they will not, but I would think AOE tools are here to stay. I think the backlash over removing them would decimate the game.


#65

The reason forgers do not make mid and low level tools is simply that you can take those mats and put them into high tier forges that sell for vastly more. If you want low to mid tier forging create separate recipes that use different materials. My opinion is to keep forging and tools how they are but add more ways to aquire mined goods, the idea of a ore seeking rod and a revamped bomb mining, both with less returns than mining but viable in their own right.


#66

I honestly think this is due to lower tier tools having a lower base durability and damage, and also the cost of forging on either low or high tier tools not being really any different.


#67

I forge and sell silver, gold and titanium tools!


#68

You are probably one of the few. I know of the players in my guild that forge probably 95% of the tools are high end AOE. I have only played with forging in test so I am certainly not an expert on any of it.

I do agree with the other responses made to may comment. The higher tier and mid require a lot of the same resources so players are going to in general make the tools that are better (more damage and durability) and that they can sell for more coin.


#69

Since low forges and high forges use the same basr mats it only makes sense to use them on the items that give the most in return.


#70

And that’s because we can cap the efficiency on gem tools to the same as wood. Imagine if pure boon compound 1 would fill the boon bar on wood tools.


#71

This is the same thing a few of us made when they decided to make some forging changes before.

The problem is the mats themselves. There needs to be a mid tier/ low tier recipe with less mats to encourage that more widely, otherwise why do it on low/mid tier at all if you’re concerned about profit/coin.

I’m working on building my own shop, though it’s slow going as hell but once it is finished I plan to sale those gem aoe tools for 20-30% what they cost to make which puts the tool around 2-4K overalll depending on rng.

Unless the mid tier tools get more points out of mats when forged, I don’t see how it’s beneficial to do those over gems. I’ve never toyed around with those tiers so maybe that’s something I will play with this coming week. Unless someone can say otherwise which would rule out the need to test.

E: we’ve definitely produced a new side topic here however, sorry @boundmore :slightly_smiling_face:


#72

it’s going in good direction - it doesn’t bother me as suggestion itself is not at all important to me there are some good points being made on both side of the fence

its not about how many hits you need - its the fact that for high tier worlds you need high tier tools to one shot (even if unforged) and that persisting food timer is ticking out while you move between the hits you make with your tool; so, using persisting food for that activity seems like a waste and thus there is no efficient way to preserve these tools comparing to fast strip mining or farming

persisting food is really food for type of work that allows you to whack as fast as possible and continuously (with as little breaks as possible)

this
when I made o comment about the game being in need of slowing down (MY OPINION), I meant that the maximum available damage and speed on tools is too high and even as hard worlds as 7 tier exo can be swiss-cheesed within first few hours

the first group of miners lucky enough to be online when such world appears can get well above 50% top resources before majority of population even realizes the new exo is available (I mean total resources dag out by players, not available on a planet; I’m sure there are quite a lot of rift/blink left behind simply because people don’t bother to search through remnants of underground where atlas shows really low density of the most wanted gems)

the available speed of mining means that 10 people end up having 80% of blink/rift landing in the market (PLEASE DON’T COMMENT ON NUMBERS, they are arbitrary and used only to picture the problem) , because 4-6 hours of exploring and mining is enough to wipe the most dense areas

so, really first train of miners that have a few spare hours can do too much

I think it would be better for the game if rift/blink/umbris exos simply couldn’t be (physically) mined out so fast, so when first wave of players is finished and go to sleep (or work or school), the others can still mine quite a lot

in other words, if there are 50 000 units of rift mined on an exo, it would be nice to see that its not 10 people having 80% of it, but lets say 50 people (I’m talking here about providing more fun and satisfaction to larger group of players, and better market competition if it comes to prices of super gems

same of ordinary gems anyways - bringing them in thousands within one hour is just pure mad
they don’t feel special at all; look at prices of gem tools (unforged go for below 2k) or advanced power coils etc.

I know a lot of people will say that slowing down mining ad gathering resources means grind - but really, whats the problem having half of what we bring from mining these days? simply different prices, more use for lower tier tools and probably more satisfaction from finding every gem or whatever precious things we look for.

Whats the point of having thousands of advanced power coils and forged gem tools thrown at us every week? It just feels so not special and not an achievement to have those. Where is room for low/mid forged tools and strip mining lower tier worlds (look at lvl 4 worlds for example: as soon as you get skilled and geared enough for lvl 5/6, you dont go back there for silver or gold).

If mining pace was significantly slower on lvl 6/7 worlds, then people would more often chose to use silver/gold/titanium (maybe even iron) forged tools and mine lvl 3 and 4 worlds just to have 1-hit fast mining.
At this moment there is too much lower tier resources dropping to our inventory when mining gems on lvl 6 worlds (and in ridiculous pace) to be bothered to use lower lvl tools on lower tier worlds to get them. You want coal, silver, gold or even iron in big numbers? No need to go for a separate mining trip on a lvl 3/4 world - just go and mine diamonds.

LOL It’s getting too long, sorry lads. :joy:
And yeah, the game is still great and it’s all going quite far from original discussion, but it all seem to be connected somehow.


#73

Mining 3000 rocks:

Buff timers at the end:

Just because you don’t make use of something doesn’t require nerfing it hard into the ground.

Also don’t use persisting pies to gather surface resources. The pies may end up costing you more than an appropriate tool.

Bah i find the forum very frustrating today.


#74

That’s the point I’m trying to make!
I don’t use it for surface gathering but I would like to. I would like to use persisting buff for many different tools and activities. Just like teaching food.


#75

But why would you pull out a persisting pie for a dime-a-dozen tool?

This is a much better place for a teaching pie.


#76

Why wouldn’t I want to use persisting food on a gem shovel?
Does it have to be limited to fully Forged tools?
It might be lower persisting food than pie. Just that time ticking out is limiting uses. Whatever tier persisting food one would think of using, it’s still the timer than limits use to speed mining. Other activities stay out of it because of the cost.


#77

If the cost of the buff is more than the value of the tool you will use for the duration, it’s inappropriate (wasteful) use of the buff.

‘Cutting 3000 Trunk’
‘Digging 3000 Soil’

Neither gathering surface resources nor crafting are good (efficient) use of a persisting food.

It’ s little unfair to single out qa bad use case, and identify it as the target for breaking many other activities.

Since you mention a shovel I assume you’re talking about gathering meshes, not resources. This isn’t as profitable as gathering the resources in general. However if you’re selling those resources at a reasonable price relative to their potential output, it’s still vastly more profitable on a per-swing basis than mining or any other block harvesting activity.

I mean the simple answer to your questions is “Because it’s wasteful”. TBF apparently you’ve sorted that and generally aren’t doing this. But I have a counter question.

Why would you break mining, logging, and digging just to be slightly more efficient at gathering?


#78

I think it’s subjective feeling to think it would break mining. People get used to certain values and don’t like if they think these numbers can go down.
It doesnt affect speed of mining anyway, only number of tools you might burn. If more are broken than more need to be bought. More power to crafters and sellers and movement in the market.
All would depend on how many hits would persisting food support.


#79

Wait is someone suggesting changing my pies???


#80

no, only mine :wink: