Sandbox Crafting Concept

[Havok40k]

Crafting in MMO’s often falls into one of two camps, either learn a profession and work your way up the tiers to craft the best items, or gather massive amounts of materials to make some really epic item. Neither of these routes (IMO) fit well into the sandbox genre. I’d like to see a system with more experimentation and discovery involved that would make a player who wants to focus on crafting feel like they are really learning their trade. While anybody should be able to craft what they need to survive, I want for dedicated craftsmen to feel like actual professionals. To this end, I think we need to break the trade into a few important parts.

1. Refining raw materials
   Refining raw materials can be our first opportunity to experiment and discover unique or better items. For my example, I’ll use simple Iron ore. When refining Iron ore in a furnace, we may be presented with the options of heat level and additives. Do you heat the iron at a low heat, moderate heat or high heat? High heats may make my iron more pure, but also more brittle. Add Coal (carbon) to make steel, or explosive essence to make a brittle but explosive flash-iron? What about other essences? Balancing heat and impurities and additives may lead to a wide variety of materials each with their own unique properties.

2. Crafting method
   Now that you have your refined iron ingots with what ever unique properties it acquired from refining, we can get even more “sandboxy” with the crafting method. We could heat that ingot and pound it into a blade, melt the ingot down and cast it into a sword mold. We could use different ingots combined to make an alloy (High-carbon + Flash-iron = Duraspark?) Our refined iron ingot could craft differently depending on what kind of properties it picked up during refining. For example, you may NOT want to pound that flash-iron ingot into a blade like you would high-carbon steel, as flash iron might, um… explode. But hey, learning is fun, right?! Depending on the crafting method used to turn our ingot into an item, we could end up with a wide range of unique items once more!

3. Embellishments (optional, for dedicated players!)
   Once you have crafted your item, you could end now with one of a dozen common variants of an iron sword. Some may be sharp but brittle, some tougher but less sharp, some even with unique properties like sparking, burning, etc. from various essences added during the refining phase. But this item is still of common quality. This is where being a professional craftsman comes in! A professional craftsman can take an item recently crafted (or purchased for cheep) and add embellishments. From a craftsmen’s wide range of skills and collection of precious metals, gems, and hides, one could add things like a unique leather wrap for better handling and faster strike speed, gems for added properties, Oort relics for unique flashy effects, etc. Embellishing an item would require a wide range of work stations and unique materials as well as the knowledge of how each works and what they work with. This would also require a professional craftsman to have a lot more work stations than just a basic furnace and anvil that a casual crafter would use. A wide number of possible embellishments could make a common iron sword into something fit for a king. A lot of an items extra value would come from how embellished it is and the rarity of the items it is embellished with. For added benefit, some embellishments could react with others granting bonus properties (example, Ruby + Fire inscription = gain fire damage and ^bonus: fiery glyph particle effect). Only by experimenting and discovering and learning could a professional craftsman provide you with the proper embellishments you seek.

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Benefits of this sandbox crafting include:
NOT having to mine potentially 1000 iron ore to get one epic quality iron ingot.
DISCOVERY! Try interesting combinations for interesting results
TRADE SECRETS! Professional craftsmen can FEEL professional because they alone may know what combination of materials and methods create that perfect item that you need.
EASY TO LEARN, HARD TO MASTER. Anybody can make a common sword with ease, but better items take more dedication.
EXPLORE! Visit far off worlds in search of rare materials.

[Zouls]

1. way too complicated for a game such as this.
2. it would be a insanely huge amount of work to make crafting like this, just the actual crafting, all the ways it can interact would be even more
3. Its naive to think that there would be such a thing as ‘‘secrets’’ in a week there would be guides all over.

The biggest one would be be number one, it sounds like an insanely complicated system to make and for players to use, you know i love crafting, but this is just… not fitting, and has nothing to do with being sandbox or not (that term is seriously used too losely)

I do agree that discovery would be a great idea, i would personelly rather see something along the lines of GW2 where you had a hint as to what can be made together, and then most things coming from recipes. cause as i said, it would just turn into having a wiki open at all times.

Very well presented though, respect for that. Insanely unrealistic though in my eyes, it would be equal to asking for 1000 different weapon types, however who am i to judge, atleast ya thought it well through

[Heurazio]

@Havok40k: I love your idea, but i fact as @Zouls said this will be the hell for devs to implement … but i realy love to see this. i always had the feeling the “profession” is kind a useless in other mmo’s because at some point everyone has it on max level and can make everything.

i don’t know how mighty the procedular-engine-part behind B< is, but this would really tickle the last out of it. maybe it is possible to use some sort of procedular-weapon-generation to realize this idea.

@Zouls:
1/2: you might be right, although I do not like to say this because of the bounderies it adds to a game that calls his self “boundless” the only way could be about procedular generation …

i hated the crafting system in guild wars 2 … it abolutly useless brain**** … once you have discovered a recipie the materials and the knowledge itselfe can’t be used in worthwhile way. you can use like 5k t3 wood for some kind of ascanded material. but that’s only a method to get the items out of the system (keep them worthy, but not in a good way).

[Zouls]

I talked about the discovery system only, not how the exp is distributed or about high level. i have about 15 topics on crafting you can look through if you get bored, should give you a better view of my opinion. i for one was always a big fan of the idea of professions in games, especially done right, something that takes time to max out and master, not just something you can master in a day like ESO.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

As @Zouls mentioned after 3 hours how to make the materials will be out on a wiki somewhere.

[Vastar]

I really like this concept, especially number 1.
@Zouls I don´t think that adding a slider for heat and a 2nd item slot (fuel,ore,essence) would be too much extra work.

2. might indeed be a bit over the top though.
3. sounds pretty neat and from what one can read on the homepage it´s not unliekely that something similar might get implemented.

But as @Zouls already said:

@Havok40k

TRADE SECRETS

Is pretty naive, I´m pretty sure a wiki page with all combinations would be online within 5 minutes after launch.

[Heurazio]

gw2 is not much better at this point. in the beginning a have leveled my twinks with crafting, i gave them 8 professions and maxed them out to 400 and they got lvl 80 in 1 day (today this is even more ridiculous with the foliants). but while we are not talking about that, i thinks the discovery mechanic was useless too. once you tried every combination you had no need to ever craft this item agin … i never ever used a copper part again after i left that tier behind me and copper or iron or even mythril was totaly useless a long time. than, some day ascanded materials come into the game and they needed so huge amounts of lower materials that it was ridiculous (i’m sure you know what i’m talking about) … i don’t think this is a good example in any kind.

EIDT:

@Vastar

But as @Zouls already said:

Havok40k:
TRADE SECRETS

Is pretty naive, I´m pretty sure a wiki page with all combinations would be online within 5 minutes after launch.

i think @Havok40k likes to say that it should be “skill” based in some kind. eg. you need to press the “use ingrediant” at a special time that depends on the material / metal / temperature you are melting. if you use it wrong you only get trash. like a real weapon smith does it in his forge.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Heurazio

never ever used a copper part again after i left that tier behind me and copper or iron or even mythril was totaly useless a long time.

Now Boundless progression system is quite different so it could probably work.

Also @Zouls does not argue that we should have the same system but that he would like some kind of research where you discover how to make stuff by messing around with materials. Meaning that people cannot make everything at the start but what you can craft is not necesarily tied to level.

[Nyuudles]

I agree with you about GW2’s crafting system, then again I guess it’s made to be extremely simple for the sake of the game being mostly catered to casuals like me. I don’t know how hard it is to find out the recipes for the new legendaries though.

[KuroKuma]

@Heurazio

i think @Havok40k likes to say that it should be “skill” based in some kind. eg. you need to press the “use ingrediant” at a special time that depends on the material / metal / temperature you are melting. if you use it wrong you only get trash. like a real weapon smith does it in his forge.

That would be something I’d wish for but sadly I don’t think we’ll get it any time soon if at all. It’s just so much more work and I also think there are a lot less people who enjoy such a crafting system.

[Havok40k]

Wow, great feedback! Sorry I kinda had to let this one stew for a while before getting to replies, I’m not feeling too swell lately and decided to get some rest. I think for the most part, @Zouls captured everybody’s thoughts fairly well, so I’ll respond to his post primarily.

@Zouls

1. way too complicated for a game such as this.
2. it would be a insanely huge amount of work to make crafting like this, just the actual crafting, all the ways it can interact would be even more

Allow me to counter this with “exhibit A”

@olliepurkiss

I believe this represents a good chunk of the core recipes, but there are still lots to add like wearables, props, and more.

I really don’t want to discredit our dev team’s ability to introduce complex mechanics into the gameplay, and while my concept may be over the top, it is still just a concept and not a fully worked out device. as @Vastar put it, step 2 may indeed be too much, but it could lead to other ideas or fun mechanics.

@Zouls

3. Its naive to think that there would be such a thing as ‘‘secrets’’ in a week there would be guides all over.

Quite true, external resources would make this a joke in no time. At the very least, you would have that mad scramble in the early days to document every possible outcome and effect much like we had when crafting was first implemented. (those damn heal/ember blocks took far to long to figure out!)

@Zouls

Very well presented though, respect for that. Insanely unrealistic though in my eyes, it would be equal to asking for 1000 different weapon types, however who am i to judge, atleast ya thought it well through

Thank you for your fair consideration, and while I’m not asking for 1000 weapon types, I am effectively asking for 1000 weapon outcomes so that is a fair comparison, though I think this may result in far less effort modeling and rendering than 1000 actual different weapons.

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@Heurazio

i think @Havok40k likes to say that it should be “skill” based in some kind. eg. you need to press the “use ingrediant” at a special time that depends on the material / metal / temperature you are melting. if you use it wrong you only get trash. like a real weapon smith does it in his forge.

That’s actually not something I had in mind, though I could possibly see it done in a manner similar to Gears of War’s action reload system. Not sure that this would really add any meaningful gameplay in this sense, however.

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Now, let me ask you guys a question. If you were to use a system like this, would you feel that you are actually “learning” the profession? Do you think that this system could be more fun than the typical “use 2 ingots and a stick to craft a sword” style of crafting? Since that was the goal behind this concept, let me know how you imagine it would be received if it was a real thing.

[Kalthazar]

@Havok40k

Now, let me ask you guys a question. If you were to use a system like this, would you feel that you are actually “learning” the profession? Do you think that this system could be more fun than the typical “use 2 ingots and a stick to craft a sword” style of crafting? Since that was the goal behind this concept, let me know how you imagine it would be received if it was a real thing.

First, let me say that your presentation was fantastic. Very eloquent. I too like parts of the idea, and to answer the question above. I would like something more intricate than the current “4 sticks + stone = infinite stone hammer”. However, I’m hopeful the current system is just a placeholder for more advanced mechanics involving skills and infrastructure.

Part of the fun of building is trying to get everything you need together in the “best” configuration. You need a base. place to do your crafting, and store your goods. Portals will give you the means to avoid the “its just too far away from home to keep exploring” effect. So I like the idea of a more involved crafting system.

However, again there is the question of playability and tedium. As already mentioned most of the “secrets” will be documented and helper videos made within days if not hours of release, so the system would need to be more than just for the sake of “discovery”. As you say certain recipes might give certain nifty results, but there needs to be a way to keep the “knowledge” (skill) in-game or it just becomes an exercise in finding the right website.

Even making “doing” a requirement in-game to retain the recipe, won’t work with it documented on the net.

Sliders on furnace to control heat, adding effects like quenching in oil, water, or essences… recipes that also require ordered steps. All could add depth or tedium. Depending upon how the system is implemented.

However, If it also involved a skill system (higher levels = more durability, better damage, better chance of success for volatile combos, etc.) that does give a means of representing a “profession”, one simply wouldn’t invest in the levels if there weren’t benefits. And if there were enough skills, there would be too many for anyone to collect them all even with infinite xp, Thus leading to specialization… and it wouldn’t necessarily mean that you can only get a “Duraspark spear of concussion” by making it yourself. You should be able to buy them. But crafting would be cheaper after the investment in the profession.

However, xp and skills may not be in your vision of a sandbox… To me “sandbox” simply means that everything in the world is collectable, has some use, and can be shaped by the players.

[Heurazio]

@Heurazio

@Havok40k: I love your idea

@Heurazio

but i realy love to see this

my opinion about your idea, but i call myself a “hard-core gamer” and i like the challange (i also enjoy playing “enless legands” / “endless space”). maybe your idea is too “hard-core” for the casual steam-gamer out there …

[Zouls]

@Heurazio

maybe your idea is too “hard-core” for the casual steam-gamer out there …

has nothing to do with being too hardcore for a certain gamer type, but rather too hardcore for a certain game, or i guess its kinda both, certain games pull a certain crowd to them, which is why Repop and SWG has such a niche audience.

i quite liked the idea of SWG and The repopulation but to craft one thing you need to go through 50 steps split over 10 crafting professions, which i would really like to avoid.

@Havok40k

Now, let me ask you guys a question. If you were to use a system like this, would you feel that you are actually “learning” the profession?

This just seems a bit too complicated for me, the way i would like to see it, which i suggested somewhere else. is somewhat what we have now just with crafting forges, you would have a journal with basic recipes, you could mix things and when you make it it goes into your journal, forexample you put a stick and 3 iron in a special grid and you make ‘‘iron axe’’ now you can go to your journal and it has saved how to make an iron axe. This however have the same problem as i mentioned with yours, it would just turn into having a guide open at all times, unless ofc you do like Divinity original sin, i absolutely loved crafting in that game.you could combine two items to make a new one, if you tried to combine two you werent high enough level you were told that this is a combination but you cant just make it yet. the reason i didnt use wiki for that game, was because there was lore books all around the game hinting how to make items, which was awesome, something like ‘‘Lockpicks are too expensive to get and makes people suspicious, so i learned how to make my own using nails, it took me a while but finally i could beat them into a decent shape which could be used as lockpicks’’. which hints that in the game you can use nails and a hammer to beat them into shape.

An addition to this the idea was also that while you could make an iron axe, you could only make an iron axe. I would love for every tier to have expanded recipes that has to drop, so while you can make an iron axe you might find ‘‘Burning one-hand axe recipe’’ which when you activate lets you learn how to make a burning axe by forging and ember stone into it while crafting it, do the same thing for every weapon type and armor type, it could be done in two ways, either the recipes had levels so you might not now how to make iron ember axe but you can make a mithril ember axe, or it could be leveled up, meaning that the first time you activate the recipe you learn how to make ember axe, the next you activate of it would allow you to do steel, then mithril, then onyx or whatever. combining this with making them relatively rare it would allow for specialization of crafters, forexample one might decide to get all the axe enhancements so he can make a high tier axe with any enhancement, while some might focus on daggers, some might focus on staffs, some might focus on the fire enhancement from all weapons. etc etc

Examples could be

Fire dmg
Ice dmg
Lightning dmg
Poison dmg
Earth dmg
Bleeding effect
Increased durability
Shadow dmg
Lifesteal

However while your idea seems slightly too complicated havok i like the idea behind it, as you mentioned there is a fine balance, some games almost use crafting like vendors, just instead of gold you pay with materials to get an item, it can be done right and it can be done horribly.

[olliepurkiss]

Hi guys,

This is a great thread, with some great ideas, and it’s definitely got me thinking about things.

We’re definitely thinking in the same direction as you – a lot of the key objectives are the same even if the details aren’t.

I’m going to go back over our plans and see if I can inject some of your ideas in.

Keep your thoughts and ideas coming.

Thanks!

Ollie.

[grazzhopper]

@Kalthazar

Part of the fun of building is trying to get everything you need together in the “best” configuration. You need a base. place to do your crafting, and store your goods. Portals will give you the means to avoid the “its just too far away from home to keep exploring” effect. So I like the idea of a more involved crafting system.

Oh, this is going to be so fun. Building a small workshop and a little farm, maintaining the basic needs of life. Building a nice hearth, smitty and woodshop. Craft some nice explorer stuff and then start exploring strange new worlds to gather rare materials (and experiences) through the portals.

On return from the expeditions a nice ale, some good prepared food and locking away all the found goodies I can carry in my warehouse for new crafting experimentations.

Love it!

[Havok40k]

@olliepurkiss

Hi guys,

This is a great thread, with some great ideas, and it’s definitely got me thinking about things.

We’re definitely thinking in the same direction as you – a lot of the key objectives are the same even if the details aren’t.

I’m going to go back over our plans and see if I can inject some of your ideas in.

Keep your thoughts and ideas coming.

Thanks!

Ollie.

That’s fantastic! Just made my day!

[Technogdude]

I really like this concept, but even so it seems like a lot of work for the devs and if it was implemented I wouldn’t expect to see it until 1,0 or later. Nevertheless I do hope that this system will be implemented because it makes end game items much more interesting and more build specific. I would like to add something it would be nice if there were tiers of quality of materials as well as tiers of materials and finally different materials could have different properties so that once a player got to a higher tier they didn’t just abandon all inferior material. For example steel armor could have a low protection against piercing attacks but had a high protection against heat attacks whist copper armor could have a high protection against piercing attacks but have a low protection against heat. Just a suggestion, I really hope this concept becomes a reality.

[kristakis]

The lack of interesting crafting had actually caused me to write this game off, sorry. But now it looks like you’re doing something interesting and I’m going to have to have a look. Regarding your points specifically, my thoughts are:

1 - I like the idea that how resources are processed makes a difference and is not just a time sink. I think this is a core requirement for a crafting system that is worth a damn and not just a time/resource sink.

2 - More meaningful decisions in the crafting process is great but I think it’s important to include downsides as well as advantages - I don’t want everything to be just about the raw numbers.

3 - The idea is good but implementing it in a way where the best course of action isn’t just “google for it” will be challenging.

You have my interest if you can make a crafting system that is meaningful, interesting and optional. But if you can make a system where player knowledge and skill is more important than time and effort then you’re in SWG/Firefall Beta’s league and have my attention (insert Leo pic from DU meme)

[Havok40k]

Hey thanks I’m glad you found this suggestion meaningful! I personally feel much the same about boring crafting mechanics bringing down an otherwise good game, and hope that the dev’s consider some of the same principles that you mentioned. As for your concern about people just Googling recipes, I think the best course of action would be to have some sort of in game journal where players can refer to recipes or discover ones they have not tried. While I’m not a developer and I’m not involved in the process (beyond forum posts such as this one!) I have seen the dev’s study heavily the forums for ideas and feedback such as this. Don’t write this game off so easily! Let the dev’s know what you like, dislike and would like to see here on the forums and they will see it! If you particularly like an idea you see here, Liking and commenting on it is a great way to indicate that a suggestion has wide support from the community.