*Actually* Public Creative Worlds

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I’m saying, they’re not presented as equivalent. And there are several sides to that, some more tangible than others.

They’re not , I guess actually, equivalent in that if you just bought the game and you want to play - you don’t get to select “survival or creative” after character creation. You don’t even get to move from survival to creative unless you find a creative world that somebody has made public, or pay (but after you’re in survival).

Unless you start paying (paying extra you already bought the game) before you start building, whatever you build is also going to be at the whim of whoever is paying for the creative sov - and herein lies a huge part of how they’re not actually, functionally equivalent.

I can buy some gleam club, and my survival home world build is staying online as long as the game is live, and I pay $5 per month. And I have perks.

I can buy a creative sov and my creative home world is staying online as long as the game is live, and I pay $10 per month. Also if I want gleam club perks I can pay the other $5 too.

This is decidedly “not equivalent”.

And after that, they’re definitely not treated as equivalent in the community. There were years of having to do a ton of work to even get rolling. And the people who did this, sometimes just aren’t that welcoming to people that get to skip it. This sort of phenomenon is not unique to this game, or this community really.

Not so, Not so. You like to build with simple materials. Me too - but not everyone. Some of the nicer blocks have as many as 5 or 6 steps o craft them. Maybe more I’m not researching this, and that doesn’t include the prep work and additional steps to create the required ingredients.

You have to hunt, mine, forage, and craft to make a block of marble. Yes, yes coins, but that’s beside the point. The tools required, the knowledge required, the time gates - all before you have a block to place. And marble is not the most complex of blocks.

Put a few hundred hours and do your next showy build on creative. Document, share, etc…

Even as someone who has shown they can pull their weight in survival and has “fans” I suspect you would be disappointed with the reactions. People who post stuff on creative almost always post with caveats like “practicing for an eventual build” or etcetera… because they know that reactions are going to be, well, “luke warm”.

I think maybe you haven’t seen or experienced much of this, and you have a pretty good attitude anyways. Not everyone is so open and kind. Especially when they have thousands of hours invested into prep before they were ever able to build, and you just whipped out some infinite stacks of blocks.

I’m going to call out @HOST - he’s a strong fellow and can stand as example. His builds are amazing… They’re very “boundless” style because he pushes the limits seriously of how many crazy decorative blocks you can even get in a build sometimes. Sometimes it’s beautiful. Sometimes it’s not to my taste. But it’s always impressive. Knowing what goes into those blocks (I do I made some of them :wink:) It’s absolutely a TON of work and that stands as it’s own achievement.

That is not something that should ‘compete’ with this:

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This takes my breath away. I absolutely did not, for one second, think about where those blocks came from when I saw those pictures. How do we attract more of this? There’s other builders - I’m not trying to leave anyone out, or be negative towards anybody. I’m just saying these are two different forms of investment, but right now they’re being compared on the same metrics.

I don’t know but I guess if you haven’t seen or experienced what I’m talking about:

  • Absolutely good for you
  • I don’t care to actually explain it

And that’s just because I don’t want to wallow around in it, or try and explain a sort of gatekeeping negativity to someone that hasn’t been exposed to it. But as to your comment about that person really being a friend - yeah the example is a little different as in a way we’re all “strangers” here to begin with.

If you’re a child (literally a child) and you decide to share your work with the community - then someone sees the color of creative on your hud and posts “Who cares it’s in creative…”

Can you see the problem?

Also to be clear, I’m not trying to really “argue” anything, but more push for some open discussion on this topic. I’m sorry if my comments offend anyone on either side of this issue. But the fact that it is even an issue - that’s why I want to talk about it.

OK, OK, another novel from Nightstar, right? I’ve been editing back in for clarity, etc… I’m just posting this right now. It’s 4 AM and I may or may not participate more in this conversation over the next 18 hours. But I’m interested to see if/where it goes.

@SephirothWS @Redlotus @XxymoxX @Kal-El @Mystfit @CleoStJames some people active in a closely related thread. Let’s ask (can i get a drum roll) @Dhusk

If you had the option, on character creation, to click one button for no color limits, no time gates, no level requirements - a completely sandbox MMO - Do you think that your journey would have been the same?

I just put a few names active on related threads. And maybe some that have spoken loudly on these things in the past. Please, everyone, share your mixed thoughts and feelings. I’m asking people to share even conflicting views on this - hopefully we can do it with some decency.

Or IDK maybe not that many people care :man_shrugging:

EDIT: reading back I realize I just said “I don’t care to explain it” in the middle of some thousand words explaining it. Sorry I’m tired :stuck_out_tongue:

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Yeah, I didn’t think of the creative world not being equal as you actually have to pay for those, I stand corrected in that sense!

I also think I am not experienced enough with this issue to keep on a discussion, I see I am way too novice at this issue. Maybe I am also just “ignorant” and think all art is good art, regardless of where it came from. :smiley:

I absolutely love so many forms of creations, Host has done a beautiful build (future of farms) and a massive contribution to the community. That picture of from Brandywine is just awesome too!

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we care, even more than DEV thinks we are

we bought the game, we can play,

they offered us the payable additions for our game - PAY FOR SOV WITH SLIGHT CHANCE TO UNLOCK COLOR PREVIOUSLY AVAILABLE ONLY AT EXO ONCE IN AWHILE…

SOV were presented 2 years ago? or so, after 2 years of absence i still see MONUMENTAL AMOUNT OF LOCKED COLORS

my 1st thought when i heard about unlocking colors
WAIT !!! you need to unlock every locked color to every single block separately?

its a joke?
it take millions of sovs to unlock them all…
how many colors where unlocked those last 2 years? 24? for different blocks and flowers?
i wanted few colors, asked few sov owners to change colors, heard - cant locked locked locked locked locked :smiley: last 3 weeks didnt see a single color unlocked

how many sovs were rented those 2 years past?

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This discussion is for everyone who plays, there are some deep divides on these issues. It’s also definitely a(nother) discussion on the direction and future of the game. If you haven’t been long enough or deep enough in the community to experience these sorts of gate keeping, that’s really good for you.

I love The Future, and Brandywine is beautiful I would not ever venture to call one better than the other, I can only speak out about what calls to me. And I appreciate both, differently. They focus attention on different ends of a spectrum, IMO.

@Zjawcia: Right, so how many players do you think come to try a building - then see this and leave?

And when I say “see this” I don’t mean your comment. I mean the issues you raise which are very real and have not just kept many players from trying - but actually caused many players to leave the game.

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im well aware of this, we have awesome decorative blocks, we have chisels, we can make wonders, but, every player iis different, every single person love different colors, everyone got hisd fav color, do you see this? someone starting playing, saw the list of available colors in game, made a project of his build he want to build, founnd a place, gather needed amopunt of plots, prepsred terrain, startedgathering materials for needed blocks, he even counted all needed amount he bought tools, brews, foods, is ready to nuilld the project of hid game life, he is gripping a shovel in his hand, starring at portal ready to sent him for gravel in his fav red color, but… but… but… red gravel is nowhere to be find, LOCKED COLOR ruined all his plans… slowly he turned away from closed portal… last look at his project… and slowly with wet trace left on mousepad his finger hitting “uninstall” button… “PM me when the red gravel will be unlocked” his last post remained his last trace he was playing Boundless once

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Ahh no.

I don’t think having a Creative world is cheating, just a time cut and a way to have all the colors you want. But as I cannot bring the blocks into the rest of the universe I don’t buy them. I do buy regular Sov’s.

I have to agree at the rate the colors unlock I will be dead and gone before they all unlock.

This IMO is the crux of the issue with unlocking colors. The algorithm needs to be modified or removed.

Who cares if you get clashing colors? The color changing Exo’s do this sometimes. I have been on some Sov’s that I was like what are these awful colors??? But just because I don’t like them does not mean others will not.

EDIT:

Yes Please!

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I am not sure the current structure for creative worlds would work as public worlds without some changes. There are no plot limits, so someone could grab half of a planet without using a single earned plot so this would require modification. Do you force a player to use their earned plots on these planets to handle this situation? If so then are they really good for new player with limited plots?

Current game mechanics mean a player requires a presence in the non-creative universe in order to move through the universe. You have to have food for energy or your character dies. Even if you simply harvest berries and eat raw berries, you need basic tools and have to find and harvest food. So a player cannot simply live in the creative universe unless they live on a single planet. The solution could be the developers providing portals between these creative planets, in which case a player could play there indefinitely and never have to step foot in the non-creative universe unless they wanted to. But you would still have to find a way for players to earn plots in the creative universe and a way to keep creative plots separate from non-creative plots.

In the end, I am not sure it is worth the effort.

If this is really a problem then I would argue the economy should be removed and players should have to make everything for themselves. How else will you know if someone used coin from footfall or that was given to them to buy the materials for building? How can you tell if someone built something themselves or had someone else build it for them? I know I have been “hired” quite a few times in the past to build portions of builds or entire builds for other players. Does this mean the build is less worthy of praise? And if I use the coin I earned from building for others to buy materials instead of grinding for it, does it mean my build is less worthy of praise?

In the end, if players are looking for others to validate the quality of their builds they may end up being dissapointed. Everyone is not going to like every style of build or appreciate the effort it can take to build something. However, does that mean that players need to leave negative comments about a build because it may have been built in creative mode? I would argue no. Unless the goal is to drive players away from the game then this is just non-productive on so many levels.

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Because they’re not the same and will never be “equal”. And they shouldn’t. Creative and survival are considered different modes in every game. Creative is not cheating. It’s not cheating because your character cannot bring the infinite resources you obtain in Creative to the main game. I personally avoid Creative mode because imo there is no “game” to it; therefore it doesn’t make my neurotransmitters happy. I know a lot of gamers love Creative mode though and make amazing things in it.

There will always be people that are less impressed with your build, your weapons, your gear, your xyz that were obtained in Creative mode, in any game. Some games have hard mode and iron man mode - they aren’t impressed with “peons” playing in regular survival mode. It’s just a people/opinion/preference thing. You can’t control others or their thoughts. If you are happy with your build, then be happy with it & enjoy it. You still had to configure and build it. Sometimes I’m impressed simply by the natural block choices that someone put together to achieve a highly aesthetic or realistic look.

I agree it would be nice to have a permanent Home World where everyone can experience Creative mode (without having to pay or borrow) & appreciate the builds. Same rules would apply - you can’t take the resources with you to a regular survival planet. Probably needs an additional rule though: something like 5000 plots per account on that world so that one person doesn’t rule it or destroy it.

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I’m supposed to be in bed right now, sleep is failing me. I’m trying to take this paragraph in, like, what?

You can absolutely travel all around creative, build entire portal networks, etc… without ever going to survival. As a stopgap, if you wanted to visit a friend in survival for a while, I mean you could just pop a totem and eat some berries and yams.

I’m logging in, to go to janus and see if my beacon/plots used there are not being extracted from my actual plot count. I know it will die with no fuel.

While that’s processing, about this:

I think this is addressed simply. You want plots, but you don’t want to grind? Buy them. In my opinion, no further discussion or softening of that point is needed. That’s my opinion though, and I welcome discussion.

Mmmmm, that’s a bit of a hyperbolic example to illustrate the situation.

If people want to argue about “how much work was put in” or whether something was “earned”, they will. And they do. This isn’t honestly a “boundless problem”. It’s just a normal social issue. When there are different paths (creative/survival) to the same goal (a mud hut) some people are going to disparage other people’s choices.

So yeah - we could argue all day over where that line is. Zero economy is really the nuclear option, though.

I would also argue no. However one person’s “just sayin…” is another person’s cutting insult. It doesn’t help when certain behavior gets normalized within a community, and a discussion is hard because we as a group clearly have a collective bias.

To clarify what I mean by that: The players who are here, are players who prefer, or have learned to address the survival game. We’ve cut our teeth on it and making it here is our minimum standard. This is what I mention above about a “new generation” of players. Many of the folks who would argue strongly for a fully developed creative channel gave it up and left a long time ago.

This is true. 100% and it would be great if everyone had the fortitude to just tell everyone else to take a hike, and do their own thing. Still overall this is a largely social experience, people are here for interaction as much as anything. People who don’t care about any of that and just want to place voxels actually have some better options than Boundless in the first place.

Somewhere there’s a line between “you still had to configure it and build it” and “try it at perma world and ill give you all praise you deserve”.

This is very much what I’m talking about. Specific balance issues aside.

Speaking of which I got boundless started BRB because I don’t spend a lot of time on the actual creatives, I guess. If i’m not using actual plots there I’ll be surprised. I’m prepared though, to be surprised :rofl:

I don’t think I missed any updates though. Having been fairly concerned with it and tested quite a few scenarios I feel like I understand the cross-realm portal system pretty well.

Anyways it makes the discussion a little harder but I hope you can see what I’m saying there, with regards to collective bias. Even the posts that are positive on creative mode (not just in this thread) frequently start with qualifiers, and caveats. I mean, “I don’t personally do this but …” sort of stuff.

Did anybody actually (even mostly) move to creative? Are any of the players who advocated strongly for the creative/survival integration still actively playing, or taking advantage of it?

It confuses the issue a little bit, this post rising from a discussion on color rarity, which also does not need creative to be addressed. These are definitely separate issues. I don’t advocate in any way that creative would ever be used to actually directly cheat in the survival game.

I didn’t even want them linked together. But right now I truly believe this. IF they copied boundless (not quibbling over some minor balance issues here, of course they need plot controls etc…) completely and offered a 100% creative game or a 100% survival game - I have honestly come to believe that adoption for the creative version would be vastly greater than what we’re seeing with “survival is the default”.

Again not arguing for “creative as the default” really. Just asking - Why is there a default?

BRB.

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I saw a ping with my name on it so thought I’d comment.

For me personally, I was unsure how “creative mode” Boundless was at the start. I luckily have the internet to do read some reviews, watch some gameplay videos and whatnot to understand what type of game it was. Even with those I totally didn’t know.

To the OP, I think that having a choice to land on a Creative OR a Public non-Creative world would be a good idea. Although it may fragment the populace, I think it would solve some of the issues we have now where some people want the game to be more “sandbox-like” and be more creative with no crafting timers, no RNG forging and no color scarcity.

Would my journey be different if I had that choice? Nah not in the least, but I doubt even @Dhusk wants a fully creative experience as that would remove crafting and many of the other things I think that people like about the game. But hey! Minecraft and creative worlds are a thing and very popular so who knows.

I am sure someone will chime in here… but in the end having a separation from the beginning might have been better at no extra cost. Having to buy a creative world to experience creative is quite silly to me, but I am not a veteran player so I am not sure when Creative worlds were introduced but guessing it was when Sovereigns were and if that was the case introducing that choice at the start of the game might not have been an option.

I tried a creative world once… I hated my experience. It was good for testing builds though, but in the end for me I just preferred to build in the “normal” world.

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I don’t go here often. It’s 2/3 through a greater beacon fuel right now.

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I’ve been through some iterations. This will definitely die if I don’t fuel it.

But yeah, clearly this would need addressing:
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Building or opening portals between creatives is no problem. Fuel with amalgam for best life :stuck_out_tongue:

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Also a max forged blink hammer is awesome.

Anyways, I didn’t realize, or care that they left in infinite plots in the current iteration. Wonderstruck did some things wierd, hopefully ofc “having infinite plots” isn’t a fundamental property of the creative world server.

But as with any major change to a game, some balance changes would be required. “not worth it right now” is not the same as “not worth discussing”.

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So, some re-focus. Not to get too distracted over balance issues, the transport system is in place, plots would need addressing, there are other points here, I mean feel free to raise them but no single balance issue on either side of the divide (probably) negates the concept.

It’s good to list the issues. I just hope to keep the horse in front of the cart. Most of the names I pinged are of course active in the color rarity thread ongoing. I mention dhusk because he has a different “banner issue” - at least AFAIK.

Here’s a little list of problems that have caused people to tire of survival, or just storm right out and quit.

Coins and problems much like what @majorvex earlier - resentment over footfall and “how people got their coins”. Honestly, the chrysominter and a lot of knowledge sharing seem to have made this into something of a backburner issue. I haven’t seen any complaints about footfall in a long time, other than people trying to get the related feats.

Time gates like the crafting timers. Probably 'nuff said on that, are there any other big “time gates”?

And other issues with crafting. Complexity is probably the second biggest issue with crafting. I posted another thread in off topic about a game I craft in, and I find this system trivial. But still some folks really don’t want to deal with it. It’s not just a time gate, you have to run several machines to get a block of marble. A solidly mid-level block.

Honestly the strictly “survival game” mechanics grate on some people. Personally I sort of separate HP from this but the need to eat endlessly, drowning, fall damage, etc… A lot of people just don’t want to deal with it. I’ve tried to introduce 2 IRL friends and both, separately, said “nah I’m not playing a game where I have to worry about starving”.

Sovereigns (creative and survival) came in a single release.

When you say “at the start of the game”, I’m not sure if you mean when Boundless released, or when a new avatar is spawned at the sanctum. Nobody ever made or put any effort towards integrating that choice into a new character’s startup, at least not that was publicly revealed? There’s no such thing as a creative home world, or starting planet. There would have been no need to code a GUI for sanctum choices as of yet.

This might be obvious but I’ve just realized how silly it is.

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I was just stating this in regards to when a new player arrives to the sanctum they should be able to choose a creative planet or not. It most likely wasn’t what the original team wanted for their game as a whole. They most likely intended to have a non-creative persistent universe for everyone. It could have very well have been dual universes (Creative and Survival) that were connected via portals with coins and inventories being separated.

Having both options probably would solve for some of the issues of balancing, timers and “grind” some have mentioned they could do without.

Sadly some people want what Boundless is currently, with crafting, but no timers, Forging without RNG etc. I am not sure a creative world solves for those exact issues in the way these people feel is needed.

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True. In first iterations, at least what they shared with us, Creative play would require an actual separate avatar. Sorting out a way to integrate the two so that the same avatar could run both and not cross up any issues was a big puzzle - but also just the sort of thing they did seem to love tackling.

There was a TREMENDOUS amount of very lively debate at that time over every detail that they would share or ask for feedback on. And sorting out an acceptable level of “segregation” to have two fully separate but parallel portal system s was the focus of a lot of it. There are still some borderline exploitative things you can do - however this is true on survival as well - mostly involving the use of a home beacon.

This is what we ended up with after the decided/agreed to tackle the fact that people didn’t want new avatars for creative.

Ahhh thanks I forgot the forge. Yeah, that. None of that.

Level requirements in general - Skill pages :stuck_out_tongue:

“The Gem Wall”

Lots of people love survival. Definitely though, we do have that collective bias I mentioned, and a love for the existing game. Lots of us would appreciate just one or two particulars removed but meanwhile keep “the real game”.

The question I’m rolling around right now is - how many would come if you just took ALL of that ■■■■ out? No emotional investment in the game yet. No boundless-specific bias to overcome. No “spend some time in survival” required first. DEFINITELY not framed as “giving up on survival and falling back to creative”.

Just two options in the sanctum.

EDIT: Also I’m not going to quote or link, or in any way try to get a brand new user into this but see todays’ live thread from someone who tried to go creative early in the game. Added a lack of overall familiarity with the external process of acquiring a world and then run into technical issues.

It’s currently so much harder to get into the part of the game that’s so much simpler to play. Bad intro, IMO.

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A hypothetical question to say the least and one you most likely would never know the answer to fully as most people are biased as you say with what they have had exposure to. I for one would always pick survival. I would still pick it to this day given what I know now of the game and of the creative and survival landscapes.

I can only speak for myself, but if the creative world choice as a new player was offered in the sanctum and it is the creative worlds that we have now, I personally feel people would prefer the survival worlds just knowing what I know of the MANY games similar to Boundless, but I cannot say that without a doubt as everyone has preferences and differences in what they want out of a game.

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Hey fair enough, all matters of opinion and speculation right now. I was not experienced in any sort of “voxel building” game ever, before Boundless.

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Just a brief lot of experience I had varies, but Minecraft, Creativerse, Lego Worlds, Empyrion, Minetest, Space Engineers, 7 Days to Die, Avorian, Trove, Tersaology, Planet Explorers, Vintage Story, Rising World, etc. etc. just to name a few.

It’s kind of a niche genre overall, but some great games nonetheless.

Taking those in comparison to your OP, not all of these offer a full creative world type experience.

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From what I understand that’s a list that, end of the day, includes some very different games.

I wonder if we’re getting to the point where “voxel building” is really more of a feature than a genre.

It’s hard for me to do this but, I’ve got work in three hours. I see two people responding and I’m very interested but, I’m going to try and catch a nap. I will definitely be back to this. I just don’t want to be so active then vanish while someone is mid-response.

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Indeed, but without going too off-topic most of them offer sandbox open world environments with building. While a few like 7 Days to DIe is a zombie survival game, it does allow for block-based base building and the ability to terraform and dig in the ground etc. with mining and an economy. Some have no economy while most are a bit different the base games are very similar. I would include No Man’s Sky somewhat other than I find it hard to consider it an MMO at all.

The base or “core” game loops are very similar in many of these though.

Gather > Build > Survive - there are some other game loops that spin off from this but the majority have a very similar core game loop.

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Do I think the journey would be the same? No. :laughing: Not even close.

Personally, I do not play on the creative servers because I want to play a game and I don’t feel like creative mode is much of a game. It is more of an artistic playground. For people who are highly talented artists, who can create super amazing art and get the challenge from the creation of the art itself, I can see why those have appeal. Maybe for them playing within the “rules” of the building is it’s own game. I am not one of these highly talented artists. :joy: So I have to get my challenges elsewhere.

Do I look down on people who choose to play on creative worlds and think their builds are somehow lesser? No! Well… mostly no. If you build giant square gleam towers in creative and drag me to come see them I might have less than impressed thoughts. But people who build amazing stuff put in the work of building that amazing stuff whether they farmed all the blocks up or not.

I look at it this way. Humans tend not to value stuff that didn’t take any work to achieve. The work can come from more than one vector, though. The creation of art is work. The farming of blocks is work. If you are not a talented artist, then playing in survival and farming up the blocks is the “work” that makes things like my mediocre builds impressive. If you are an awesome artist, then the art itself is the work. A survival gleam tower of rare gleam colors can therefore be almost as impressive as a creative masterpiece.

The thing about color rarity is that people have different taste in colors, and some colors are more rare than others simply by virtue of some colors being WAY more represented in the color palette to begin with. There are way more blues and greens than browns and reds. Someone who mostly builds with blue is therefore going to be less annoyed at being locked out of a couple colors than someone who builds with a color like brown. Locking 2 of 10 shades is way more annoying than locking 2 of 40 shades. So the color rarity thing does not affect everyone equally. I do think there needs to be rare stuff. I just think color rarity is a poor selection for the rarity focus. I think it is better to use things that everyone is going to need than things that only some people need, because humans are humans and envy and resentment are a thing. I don’t know that all the colors actually need to be unlocked though, I just think improvements to the goo/pigment/paint system need to be made.

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