Balance

Point by point,

The problem here should be easy to identify: the tools are, at best, a side-grade from iron, while taking more resources to craft (including iron, in the case of silver alloy tools) and having lower durability.

They would need to either be cheaper, more durable, or have higher base damage in addition to the benefits of being swift / having higher critical damage. The investment part is really key here. In the case of hammers, for example, using an iron hammer results in enough iron to replace it, plus some. Using alloy tools, this is much more difficult to achieve, regardless of planetary tier.

They’re also, somewhat unexpectedly, worse in terms of forging effectiveness than iron, making iron tools better even for use in the forge.

Again the issue here is the compounding investment in making a titanium tool. You need to mine and smelt iron/copper, gold/silver and titanium, then craft precious metal alloys, then craft titanium alloy, to finally be able to craft the tool.

For gem tools, you need fewer crafting steps, and less variety of resources. You just need the gems, which are compacted, and then refined, and you’re good to go.

A compounding factor is that there are too many competing uses for alloys in Power Coil crafting, particularly Advanced ones: you need a VERY LARGE quantity of precious alloys (for machined blocks and to make titanium alloy for the furnace bases) and, of course, the titanium alloy itself, while using barely more gems per Coil than per tool.

So, in the end, gems are more plentiful, comparatively, than titanium alloy (or gold/silver alloy) for tool making, as they’re used in fewer recipes.

Edit: A possible solution would be to make furnace pieces and compacted/refined/machined blocks use bars, rather than alloys. I’m sure I’m not the only one with an over-abundance of titanium bars and not enough precious alloys to convert 'em into something useful, so they just sit there being pointless.

The issue here (in my opinion) is more of an initial lack of definition for what role bombs were supposed to have. Are they for combat? For buffing? For mining? For clearing out terrain?

Personally, it always made sense to me that they should be used as terrain destruction/removal, rather than as Seam Detectors, in mining, and as an Area of Effect buff/debuff delivery system in combat, rather than for damage.

However, too much time passed with them being allowed to be used as Seam/Ore Detectors, without any indication by the develpment team that this was not their intended use, so they came to be expected to fill that role, and when they were properly defined without warning as a terrain removal tool, which makes sense for bombs, it came as a bit of a shock to the people that believed (and still believe) that their intended use should be as ore revealing tools. Better communication, and a better job in defining the role that items are expected to fill, would go a long way towards making the balance discussion more productive. Particularly in the case of bombs, that still sit somewhat undefined in players minds despite the 199 patch seemingly clarifying their role as a terrain destruction tool rather than an ore revealing tool.

This point was fairly well argued on other posts in this thread, so I’ll just add that a significant part of the issue comes from diamond being found in a particularly desirable resource band (together with gold, titanium, hard coal and medium coal, as a rule) while various other gems are found in comparatively poorer areas in terms of highly desirable resources.

I believe the issue lies more in the rewards than in the risk and time investment. The effort-reward ratio is skewed towards the easier meteors, and I believe that to bring the higher level ones in line the solution would be to increase the rewards rather than change the effort part of the equation.

6 Likes

I think forging quirks might also be something worth taking a look at.

Today, all quirks are negative effects (just generally milder and weirder than defects). This means that players are actively optimizing to avoid both quirks and defects—encouraging us to skip over tiers & progression.

Suggestion: make some quirks desirable (but maybe situationally) Examples:

  • Bomb cube: bombs now explode in a cube, reduces radius by N%
  • Power hungry: increases damage by N%, but each attack/swing deals M% damage to the player
  • Power of the sun: increases damage by N% during the day, reduces damage by N% at night
  • Bonus damage while jumping
  • Etc
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We could also add tool augments, but don’t let them start until you hit alloy. Make the t1 augments incredibly easy to make to increase the viability of gold and silver tools.

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Gem tools and weapons used to have different traits before in EA. Ruby slingbow was sniper, emerald was poisoning, topaz was rapid I think … then the forge came along and all that was thrown out the window in favour of RNG.

I agree, 1 or 2 desirable quirks would increase the desire to try forging early on. But keep the benefit to a small amount or % so quirks still aren’t something you would actively seek while forging

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I’ll link a thread I made a month ago below where I said you had to improve the food UI and buff Gold damage. And you guys did both. There are some further slight tweaks I think you can still make. Specifically;

  • Improve the flexibility of Silver and Gold so they are more forge friendly

I have a gold mining build where I can one shot T5 rocks vs the same Titanium hammer which would take 2 shots for a rock. But I don’t know if people would still want to use a gold hammer when the Titanium is more durable.If you improve the flexibility of both Gold and Silver then they’ll be used more often because there are certain forged Gold tools that can be used with great effectiveness. But I’d be careful not to make it as good as Titanium.

I’m only using hammers in this case but I think the same concepts can be applied to Axes and Shovels

Another possible quirk: A hammer randomly ‘eats’ some stone instead of dropping it, but fills the hunger bar (but still uses energy as normal) a little bit when that happens. At the highest level for the quirk, it would eat all the stone and always fill the hunger bar instead of draining it.

That way people that dislike having infinite XP via stone crafting would have something to be happy about, and it would provide an alternative for carrying a million prime steaks in exchange for the loss of the potential stone crafting xp.

6 Likes

I would actually only allow augments for gold and silver, nothing too crazy ofcourse.

interesting idea… what if healed the durability of the tool instead? (but only enough to slow it down from breaking)

Edit:
oh wait, with persisting foods that would next to impossible to balance… unless the persisting food also decreased the quirk effectiveness :thinking:

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That would be more of a straight up boon rather than a quirk.
Durability is one of the most desirable stats and a gem tool with a durability boon and pies already lasts a good deal of time…

I think it might be just too easy to abuse. Kind of like forging range on bombs pre-199.

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Oh god, please give me those rock so I can sell them!

Lots of code in the background anytime you try something like that. It shouldn’t be crazy difficult, but would definitely break some stuff. It’s a neat idea, though. I like the idea of having a somewhat useful quirk.

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Don’t forget you can buy things. The game (I believe) was designed so that you can purchase things to circumvent areas of the game you don’t want to participate in; like mining.

DO IT! JUST DO IT!
Make every Item and Tool Useful, Or Most things will become Useless.

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I think the main issue with that particular boon is the ‘random’ part. It’s amazing that it hits 6 blocks with full damage, but it’s extremely annoying that it makes messy tunnels and sometimes leaves stones right in front of you blocking your path.

If it was changed to, say, 3 wide x 2 high with full damage to all 6 blocks, I would pick it over 3x3 for high tier mining without thinking twice.

Edit: If it guaranteed a 1x2 ‘tunneler’ effect + 4 extra random surrounding stones, I would be less happy than with a guaranteed 3x2 but still use it for high tier mining. With the 1x2 +4 configuration it would be more of a stone collection tool, rather than a proper branch mining tool. It would be a bit more of a niche use, so not as useful, but still, some use is better than none. At least it wouldn’t block your own tunnel and force a switch to a single-target hammer to clear the path.

2 Likes

Titanium is almost as hard to get as gems for me. I’ve never had much luck getting these ores. It’s due to a lot of reasons. Some on my end and some on the game’s. I’m a casual player and a great deal of the frustration stems from that. In every mining run, I’ve found a maximum of 10 titanium nodes per trip, and possibly 30 gem nodes on my best day.

A good idea would be to put the elevations that each material is found at. Also, I’ve noticed things like rock salt don’t even have a knowledge entry That might have changed with the recent patch though. Updating the knowledge base with more details about where the item is and how it’s obtained might go a long way towards helping.

That being said, I see the point about the tools and agree with it, but speaking as a casual player, I barely have access to titanium tools and that’s because I setup a request basket and bought a bunch of the ore to make tools with. I’m hesitant to make them though because they last a bit longer than iron tools, yet, not that much longer. Forging is currently end game and I don’t want to waste the forging components I already have. Anyway, none of this is relevant. The point is I agree that tweaking needs to be done, and not only will I answer any questions about my experience you might have, but I’m willing to be a test subject as needed. Good luck and I hope you all have success with it.

In my uneducated opinion, durability is the biggest issue here. You can balance speed vs. power, but each tier of tool should be more durable than the one below it, regardless.
Wood <stone <copper <iron <silver <gold <titanium

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A lot of those bullet points are huge issues with the game currently. Fixing those over the next few releases would go a long way to keeping people playing as they get further in the game.

For the bomb mining (really wish I had gotten in on that while it was still a viable thing so I wasn’t stuck in this choke point of not having gems for coils) Perhaps you could make an augment for bombs that people could craft that would simply not damage the resources or maybe different augments to not destroy specific resources? It would take more crafting to make them so it wouldn’t just throw forged hammers to the wayside but not require full forging.

I’ve wondered about this a great deal as well. In particular it seems like a fantastic way to balance or at least add some risk to the balancing act of getting what you want on any particular gem tool. If it’s by design then it’s brilliant. If 3x3 was the level 5 of that particular boon then getting maxed 3x3 gem tools with maxed damage and longevity would be easy. I can say for certain that it’s the reason for 3x3 being level 4 of the boon. But giving the dev team the benefit of the doubt i’d say it seems like a design feature.