Sorry with that i have to disagree, for me ESO is a prime example on how not to do crafting, everybody could learn everything within 30 mins except the traits, it was a good idea with traits but the fact that it scaled to double the amount everytime made the system feel so cheap (which is what i mentioned in the time sink post i made and in thebirne’s suggestion)
there are nine traits for every weapon and armour piece, you have to research each indivdual trait for each armour piece and weapon.
Trait 1 = 6 hours
Trait 2 = 12 hours
Trait 3 = 1 day
Trait 4 = 2 days
Trait 5 = 4 days
Trait 6 = 8 days
Trait 7 = 16 days
Trait 8 = 32 days
Trait 9 = 64 days
for each item you can research one trait at a time, and at a time you can research traits for up to 3 items
what i like is it takes time to master these things and devotion.
[that is all for ESO]
So mastery of a Skill takes exactly.
892.5 days in order to research every trait available in that skill lineand to do them individualy
thats neither time nor devotion. it takes multiple years to learn everything, even if you set it the second you can and you have full in the crafting, these are the things i want to avoid, like look at it, researching for oever 2 months… to me personally its a too artificial way of doing it, luckily the traits werent that important (except for the fact you needed them for armor set bonuses) now imagine recipes that does the same, rough head calculation that would be around 200 ish recipes for everything? and if they made even more that would be the time sink, meaning if i look for recipes 12 hours a day then i will get everything 12 times faster than the one looking 1 hour a day (by logic) which i think is more rewarding, but its again a clash for hardcore vs casual gamer 
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casual gamers suck xD
not at all, some people might be busy working or studying and can only play 1 hour a day if they are lucky, its just a matter on how much the game will cater to each side
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b y casual i mean goes on one day doesnt come back for 20, then goes away again but comes back every few months
I mostly agree with the first part of your post (mainly because it´s quite similar to what i said in my post^^)
I think the problem is that you are comparing Oort way to close to standard MMORPG. Even I (as someone who also is looking mostly forward to the RPG aspect of this game and not to the voxel part) think that you are expecting way too much complexity in the crafting system. From what I´ve read in your post i guess that you have the list-like crafting systems in mind that are usually used in MMORPGs, which we will most likely never see in this game (There is already a crafting system and I don’t think that the devs will change it anymore) so we have to think about a profession system that works “in the Minecraft way” but with MMORPG influence.
There are several other problems with the generic MMORPG profession systems in a game like this. Just imagine Minecraft without being able to craft a diamond pickaxe just because you focused on skilling fighting instead of crafting 
Just to say it again, I´m completely 100% with you when it comes to the need of profession progression.
What i would like to see are small skilltrees for each profession (like the ones shown in @DarkRepulsor s Skill slot System post. Those could offer small bonuses like "+% stats or -% materials needed or give you some unique crafting options, something like: An unskilled crafter only sees [iron sword] as crafting option when he puts 20 iron bars in his crafting slots whereas you as skilled blacksmith see three options [broadsword (+dmg -spd)] [iron sword] and [shortsword (-dmg +spd)]. So an unskilled player is perfectly capable of supplying himself with tools and weapons but you as skilled crafter have (and are able to offer) an option for customization. This would (as you can see) also fit into the current crafting system.
The skilling itself could work in the “grindy” way (because its the simplest and most effective way to implement it in my opinion).
I´d also love to see recipes (imagine our goat friend would have a chance of 1/10000 to drop the recipe of a potion that turns you into 
for 5 min 
) they would also blend into the current crafting system (“just” one option more in the grid) Of course recipes should be bound to a skill level in the regarding profession.
Crafting stations and tools are basically a must if you ask me. They add just too much atmosphere and immersion to a game to be left out.
What if those tools are bop? (bound on pickup) Like the staffs enchanter needed in WoW?
PS: That link to the article you posted is (sadly) pretty accurate in summing up the current situation in MMOs.
I think the idea of recipes would work in the aspect of crafting roles if bound to a certain level and skill rank, but they only should be for additional bonuses or alternate stats of the items, not for being able a standard high level sword. With that and the system of more variety of items when crafting in mind it would also be ok for solo players cuz they would be able to craft their “normal” equip without any skills but also may specialize to get the best out of their built.
I also support the point that each character should be able to learn every crafting profession without any limits. To have to chose a trade and be bound to the choice would be bad. The one limit should be the time and effort to max a profession.
“Feel” is a pretty subjective (meaning that while I appreciate your standpoint, others, like myself and other oort players, may not feel the same way and maybe the system shouldn’t be dismissed so quickly. Rather, a discussion about tweaking certain systems or creating hybrids might be more productive?) and I don’t quite understand what cheap means? Some players (myself and my roommate included) think that the trait system in ESO gave us a sense of accomplishment and definitely provided an edge over less dedicated players in the economy. Also gave us a huge boost when making our own gear because of our dedication.
The ESO system actually seems to be the perfect definition of time and devotion. Takes a long time and keeping ahead of the curve takes a lot of devotion.
The question that pops into my mind from the above snippets is the following: If crafting is a path, shouldn’t we make it as difficult a path as others? If people want to be a crafter and only have an hour to spare, that’s kind of on them. Maybe they should focus on gathering instead? But in the same way that someone doing PvE who only has one hour probably couldn’t do a Titan, I don’t think someone with severely limited time should have full access to crafting. If it is it’s own path, I personally believe it should have the constraints that other paths do. While maybe the best idea isn’t to implement an ESO type system, I do think some sort of time constraint should be in place for crafting.
Again this seems to be implying that as a crafter it should be easy to be able to craft everything and gather all recipes even though other paths will have a harder time playing the game (if recipes are even a thing). Also, economies would be difficult to set up if guilds only needed one dedicated crafter to give recipes and materials to. I guess in my mind I’m somewhat thinking a system such as the one in SWG would be preferable. Time and devotion to level up and craft via stations and talents and a set path so that the economy is robust. Thoughts?
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I also like the way Eso handles crafting. Especially the aspect that everyone can train all crafts without having to chose one or two of them and ignore the others is something which makes it preferable for Oort as a mmo/solo-mix-game. I only don’t like the fact that you can raise the skill simply by buying the mats and then go through clicking for half an hour til finished. I know, there is also the research feature, but I think raising the skill it self should be bound to a time sink as well.
If recipes would be a thing (I don’t think that the devs would like them but until they say definitely “no” we can go on discussing them), may be that crafting an item which uses a bonus though a recipe needs time until it’s finished. On that way a big guild would need more then one good crafter to fulfill its needs 
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That would indeed be one way of doing things. I also like time requirements for progression that make it so that focusing on one crafting path takes a decent amount of time. Otherwise I feel like there won’t really be an “end game” for crafters if all they have to do is look up recipes and get materials from friends or through their own adventures. Progression definitely should exist and it should be as considerable in time and dedication as other paths are (in my mind)
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I think everyone should be able to get semi-good at everything but only be able to fully master 1-2 proffesions.
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Well firstly… i would recommend reading my long post, and you would notice that everything you says i disagree with, i said was good, you clearly just skimmed it and then took what i wrote after, which makes me a bit cross. but whatever, lemme adress you directly then
Well what do you define dedication? that you log in every 14 days to click a button and log out? is that dedication? personally i dont think so, as for how it felt ‘‘cheap’’ Because it is cheap, it felt lazy by the devs, just a ‘‘we cant be asked to make something better’’ so i ask you again, what is dedication? cause for me using time ingame is what dedication is, any moron can log in once in a while to click a button, but if they mastered it by using 4 hours ingame everyday for a month, that is dedication, which is why i disliked the system
again, not really, anybody can log in and click a button, its just a hassle not real dedication. i can understand why you would think so because i felt the same when i started playing it, i literally had an alarm on when it was done, but as it went to 1 day, 2 days, 4 days it just felt pathetic, i used 4 hours ingame every day and yet i had the same progress as somebody who played 5 min every 4th day? that is what bothered me. personally traits felt like they werent worth the time, but they were forced to make sets.
Oh really? you might have been lucky then, cause nobody engaged in armor trade, even on higher levels when i played, everybody could make everything, so why would they? crafting were useless in terms of economy, the only things i saw sold was motiefs and materials. trust me, i was hyping for the game, i was so much looking forward to being a crafter because they promised an awesome system, and guess what? when i came into a game it was not a viable playstyle
now this is where i realized you actually didnt read the post i used 3 hours to make, i clearly stated i wanted crafter to be a valid playstyle, for the casual player style, i agree, crafting should take time so only playing 1 hour a day shouldnt be very viable which you would have noticed if you had looked at the context of the discussion but never the less i have to appreciate the irony in saying ‘‘crafting should be hard and time consuming’’ in the same sentence as saying a system where you stay ahead by playing 5 minutes with massive time intervals is good. but meh.
Well that is the thing, i want a complex crafting system where you can dedicated time (ingame, not outgame) to it, however given that oort is so big and so many things, combined with them being a small team i think SWG or The Repoulation is too hardcore.
hope this clarifies it, and again i would recommend you read the long post so you get a better view of what i think about crafting
EDIT: i do understand what you and @TheBirne mean though, its a fine balance between not punishing players who want to level and not just allowing people to steamroll through all of the content, you mentioned swg for example, in theory you could do the same there, but it didnt happen much did it? because it took so many materials to level that it wouldnt be economically viable for that player to just mass produce? think its something like this, but then you will again get those people who call it ‘‘grindy’’ because they want to master everything, saying a guild can just pump mats and recipe’s into person is actually a pretty good argument, i didnt even think about that, but my view on that would be kinda ‘‘why not’’? if they want to use all of their resources on one persons leveling why should they be stopped? they worked for it, and then the fact that if the person leaves or betrays the guild they would have wasted all of those things.
sorry if i seemed rude, wasnt intentional, just a bit tired out from writing the ‘‘essay’’ xD
You can see my opinion here on automated timesinks:
https://forum.oortonline.com/t/automated-timesinks/645
i am definately not against it, however i feel that it should make sense without being too intrusive, like i mention more rare materials in the post, if you make the special forge hard to get materials for + hard materials for making the rare ones, you would increase the value, however not adding an artificial limit on it would also be important, like saying ‘‘you can only make one of these a week per person’’ or whatever, would be bad, ofc this would mean that you could decide to only craft these things and spend all of your time on that which is the beauty for a sandbox, it opens up for what people want to do and that person might become famous for selling these materials.
so yeah, im definately not against it, but they need to be done right, having to wait 2 months is not right. its just lazy, on the other hand if you have processes that takes 15-17 hours that feels rewarding timesinks would be great, hope this clarifies a bit more
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It does. I did read your post. I just saw a part about being a casual gamer, a part about being a dedicated crafter, and a part about gathering 200 some recipes and I thought they couldn’t all click at once and wanted to note what I thought was a bit of a contradiction in your lengthy argument that I wanted clarification on. I don’t want to talk about ESO because I want to talk about oort, but there is one thing I would like to point out.
I did not say it was good. I said that I didn’t think it was cheap. Regardless of how you may not have liked crafting in the game, others did. And completely throwing the system out of this discussion is less than helpful.
Agreed. Which is why I suggested hybrids or tweaks in my post that we, as a community, should discuss before throwing entire systems out the window 
Apologies then, i realize it might get a little confusing, 200 recipes was just an estimation of how many traits you could learn in ESO trying to port it over to a system where ingame and not outgame time is what matters, well lemme adress this at the same time, gonna pull 1 more person in
@Vastar i see what you mean, i think saying that the crafting system is not gonna change alot is a bit of a weird idea to have since its version 0.1 xD
People have used the argument that they said ‘‘crafting is not going to require a wiki’’ which is why it would make sense ot assume we got some sort of crafting list, i have talked about it somewhere else that i think the crafting system we have now is great if we get some limitations on it and then keep having players discover recipes, but then as an addition when they do discover the recipe they kinda get it saved forever so they can see it in a log book sorta thing.
I imagine something along the lines of GW ‘‘discover’’ system or Divinity original sins crafting systems would be good.
with the main point being that if you find a combination that is correct and dont have the right skill level it says that this is a recipe that will craft something but you arent high enough level to craft it. so for both of you how i imagine it could be done is something along the lines of 50% of the things you craft you have to ‘‘discover’’ but you also need the appropriate skill level, and the other 50% might be dropable recipes that are found in chests and temples (numeric values for this would be up for great balance)
you could also combine this with a timesink for some materials or recipes as long as they make sense and arent punishing players who plays daily, indeed dismissing a system is not a good idea, but in this particular case i would like to do it, not the timesinks as i mentioned before but the fact that 1 timesink can take up to 2 real life months.
The system of “discover and note in recipe book” of gw2 was a good idea and would fit well into Oort’s system of crafting which may result later from the current known mechanic. I still don’t think that the ability to build something should be bound to a rank of a profession. That would limit the solo players to much. The matter of being able to build something should be globally tier bound or by the ability to actual use the item (for example you would be able to build a plasma cannon, but to use it you need to be tier 5). There are other aspects which may be reached through profession. What if items have a random bonus/rarity and with a higher profession the chance to get a better one will increase? Or what if it lowers the resource costs? Making repairing cheaper?.. Lot of ideas that would not hinder solo players
With your 2 mega posts i don’t really have much to add. (As i suppose that was why you tagged me)
Holy Christ i have used a lot of time doing that, and materials, and gold. 
I like the idea of reccipes, and restricting crafting abilities based on skill. But i think that if you are in a high tier world you should be able to simple weapons of that teir.
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There is also the wildstar system for cooking.
i swear to god, that is not a crafting system, that is a god damn gambling machine robbing me of all my money xD
On a side note i pulled you in cause i know you also care for crafting and i used you as an example last time i wrote this so i felt i should atleast add it as a tag xD
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EVERYONE!. before you start throwing ideas at the devs, try to think about the back part of it and how long it would take to implement it, remember a simple gui can take up to 2 weeks to produce. and then however long to test it and fix it.
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True, the golden rule should always be “It has to be simple but efficient.”. The Wildstar cooking was way to complex for me ^^. In the moment the discovering aspect of the crafting in Oort is the only thing we know of how it may go on with this side of the game, so the idea of a recipe book filled through experimenting and crafting would fit well (and may be a must if it comes to the wish to make a wiki obsolete). But extra windows or graphics for special crafting professions don’t have to be