Feedback: Rewards, long-term Monetisation and the Exchange!


#242

I’m always puzzled by people wanting to know how to make coin without producing things for people to buy. A builder can gather and sell things whether from mining, gathering, or hunting. They sell to those interested in having shops, or they craft things and sell them. My builder character spends as much time mining etc. as my other two characters. My gatherer/miner builds their own things and my hunter builds their own things. That way all get the feats for experience points. If two characters ever get all the feats for their specialty then I’ll re-class those two so that they still have feats to get. Everyone though gathers so that the one crafting at the moment can craft and any of them can sell then, and they have the materials available to build with. Any fancy building that actually takes building skills whichever is the builder at the moment does that. Everyone gathers though all the time. Everyone hunts. Everyone builds. The only real difference for the builder when high level then it can do the fancier things building just like the hunter when high level can fight more difficult creatures. The other difference is that if a builder does just build then like in some other games they let other players know for x amount of coin they will build whatever for that person on the plots of the person who hires them. That is what real life calls a construction business. No footfall income is necessary. Heck, I look at any income as a bonus to make life easier since people can make their own things and never purchase a thing if they so desire. I would be all for getting rid of footfall as most games I have seen don’t have it and do just fine with builders selling their services. Footfall is for those who don’t want to build something as a business selling their services to property owners. That’s not very realistic. In life you either build for others and make money off that, or, you build a business and make money off the business. You don’t make money by getting property in high traffic areas and building non-business things so that you can make money off of people who walk by on the sidewalk through footfall. I would be very happy to get rid of footfall if for no other reason than so we never have to hear about it again and people can either build for fun or do things that actually produce buildings or goods that other players will pay for. Construction workers get paid for their service. People who build just for the sake of building or getting prestige etc. shouldn’t be expecting money too. A hunter doesn’t get paid just for hunting. They have to sell what they get or make a product to get paid. Miners don’t get paid just for mining. They have to sell what they mine or make something to sell. Builders should be no different. Either sell your product (your services building) or don’t get paid. Money is not a necessary thing other than a small amount (less than what we currently get in log on bonuses) for travel money.


#243

Again, there are some broken mechanincs that I am not going to spoil over the forums right now. It can be abused I have tested it and reported it. I agree with your desire to make coin without having to create a shop. It is something I have fought for before in terms of character specialization.


#244

This isn’t a P2W discussion thread. It’s a thread about the cash shop ideas that was clarified because someone dug into some game files and looked at out dated data. That’s exactly how this entire thread was even created in the first place. Without that person doing that, this thread wouldn’t have existed so early on or at all until the developers were ready to share the information.

This is a weak solution. Whether someone needs footfall or not, without it or some form of coin being injected into the economy on a regular basis then money is going to be horded up. There are just naturally going to be people who are going to do this. No amount of contracts or flawlessly created goods and services model is going to change how the economy of a game is going to grind to a halt because we don’t have regular injections of coin. That’s an actual real issue if we don’t have a reasonable amount of footfall coin generated from those who build settlements that become popular destinations to visit.

Verbal contracts between players doesn’t strengthen the money supply. It leaves it stagnate and open for control and manipulation. There isn’t even an issue with plots anyways.

I said that in response to your statement regarding Moebius earning coin from 2 locations off footfall alone. It’s like you don’t want people who spend all that time building stuff up to get some sort of reward out of it passively.

Also, there is no active “economy thread” that I’ve been able to see.

It’s irrelevant that Moebius and others are making coin off multiple locations cause they earned all those plots, all those blocks, all the stuff to build those locations and stock the shop stands and request baskets. They didn’t drop a single bit of money on obtaining any of that other than the money for the account. Having a founder bonus of extra plots doesn’t mean someone’s account is P2W.

Having more plots doesn’t mean you instantly gain more stuff to fill those extra plots with. You don’t instantly spawn smart stacks of whatever you want to build with in those extra plots. It just doesn’t happen. It won’t happen.

How you decide to use your plots is completely up to you as the player. If you just want a spot where you store items, cool. Want a shop? Build one. Want to make a city? Acquire all the stuff and start building.

The bottom line is, if you want coin you’re going to need to make a location that people want to visit and that typically is going to be a shop that sells stuff people want at a price people are willing to spend their coin at. The footfall is icing on the cake that you get to eat and it gives the shop owner more buying power. This loops into spending that extra free generated coin at other player’s shops that they created with their plots and so on.

Plots can equal more income. But you directly have to build something meaningful enough for people to visit on a regular basis each day or it’s completely irrelevant. That is why Moebius having 2 locations he makes coin off of is irrelevant cause he made something of value that people want to visit.


#245

Not everyone hunts a lot.
Not everyone builds a lot.
Not everyone gathers a lot.
Not everyone mines a lot.
Not everyone crafts a lot.

Money is a necessity for a solo player or small group unless you want to do everything yourself. If there is an imbalance in the economy, and footfall corrects it, then footfall is removed, then we’d need a replacement.


#246

Here us where I see a difference. A Hunter, Gatherer, Miner, or Crafter creates a resource that can be sold just by engaging in the activity, whenever and wherever they want to do this. There also is steady demand for the resources that are created/gathered through these activities. Any time someone engages in these activities they create a resource with some value. Maybe not a lot if they are gathering sand, but it can be sold. Building does not automatically create a resource that can be sold. It does not create something with any quantifiable value in the game. I have seen a few people looking for someone to build something for them, but this is rare so there is not enough demand to generate income for a Builder.

Maybe there is a belief that building is a side venture and only the other activities should be able to generate income. As an example I should be a Hunter first and a Builder on the side, since Building does not generate any coin (without footfall). I would like the Developers to comment on this, if this is their intent.

Now if we want to emulate real life, people who build things DO charge for their effort. Should I charge 30 coin each time someone to uses my portal? Should I charge someone rent if they link to a portal in my portal hub or shopping area? Should I tax people who want to join my city (property taxes) since I am building the roads? Should most people not be able to build their own home (like in real life) so builders can build apartments and charge rents? I am not suggesting that any of these things are good for the game. I think they add a level of complexity to the programming and to playing the game that is really not worth it. However, if we eliminate footfall for whatever reasons, then I think we need to seriously look at other ways for people that want to be a Builder to earn coin. If you do eliminate footfall, there needs to be a way to create demand for things produced by builders so they do have something to sell.


#247

But, but, but I just want to spend my money :crying_cat_face:


#248

@spoygg

I have some wonderful precious gravel you might want to invest in. It’s a limited time offer so buy now!


#249

I have some magical beans that I can sell you!!!


#250

The game would not be sustainable if there’s a finite account of coin in circulation. This motivates players to hoard coin and attempt to do everything themselves.

If anyone can put this concept into better words please do


#251

If it’s the yellowish variety I’m in :joy::joy::joy:


#252

Pretty easy to word it.

Having a source of coin entering the money supply and a way for it to be removed to help balance inflation and deflation, is important to have. A lot of MMOs have this to help keep the game’s currency from endlessly growing out of control. Removing a source of regular coin generation from nothing will result in an economy grinding to a halt and every shop owner having their source of coin income dry up cause of a minority of the player population just sitting on their money.

If the money supply doesn’t have a tug and pull in growing and shrinking come 1.0 and beyond, at some point the game is going to be boring for everyone needing coin and I’d wager a majority of those people would quit. The more people quit the less coin is circulating through the game’s economy.

It’s a domino effect.


#253

First off a lot of the observations about my huge builds are not accurate but whatever.
I don’t mind if they implemented new ways to make money, footfall is so minor in comparison to trading and farming, but is a good way for extra cash at lower levels. What I am saying is that they are changing how the settlement prestige is being calculated based on the possibility of pay to win.
Because they are linking plots to prestige bonus? Because higher prestige means higher settlement bonus upto capital making it possible to get more footfall per person as long as people walk on your beacons making you some money BOOM p2w?

If I understand right people will be able to sell plots to other people as well making it somewhat balance with the exchange but I can’t say for sure because none of that is in game yet. If they want to remove footfall completely so be it, but don’t mess with how settlement prestige is being calculated. I don’t know what proof you have that a small beacon cannot compete against a large one if they have better blocks. Check out Toxic town and La Mancha if you need a reference.

edit:
We need to watch what kind of feedback we are giving to make sure we are not harming other aspects of the game. if you were really concern about pay to win argue the plot bonuses, trading plots with people, trading plots to a guild. Footfall is not the problem, is a symptom of other issues. The number of plots anyone 1 person can have is the problem, yet limiting plots is also a problem for people that want to build so argue to builders like @Liveey who have spent TONS of hours farming XP trying to grind plots to what she calls “small builds”.


#254

Tax revenue is coming if you built the city. I have no problem with having to pay for portal use each time. That would help portal makers know which portals are worth their expense. As it is, people say they make portals for the public benefit when the truth in most cases is they do it just to get footfall and the resulting profits. I am in games where builders advertise their services and make a lot of money building things for people and it is their primary source of income in the game making them pretty well off. It is no different from life, either makes something of value that earns money, or do it for fun. I can hunt all day and I don’t make a single coin unless I level, get a feat, sell what I collect, or craft something and sell that. I have never tried to sell anything, so, my only income for all my characters is leveling and occasionally a feat along with my primary income of daily or weekly activity bonuses. So, my builder has the same income as my hunter and miner. Oh, I also have a couple hundred from footfall somehow in the middle of the desert. None get paid just for doing activity. What coin I make is fine for portal travel and more than enough for anything I will ever buy.

Footfall encourages cities for those who like cities as it’s dependent on traffic. So, there is a battle in places for who can have the biggest city and the capital so they can get the most income. That is a small percentage of players though it seems. Most are scattered all over in forests, swamps and deserts or high on mountains or deep in valleys on a lake. We don’t get footfall and do just fine. That is all the proof I need that footfall isn’t necessary. I did laugh though when I read one developer say how in two places he only got about 4,500 coin each from footfall per day. So, 9,000 or so per day in just two places off footfall thanks to being in prime places in cities. I might have made it to 200 total footfall (more likely 100) ever but I don’t collect it so not sure. Builders don’t spend every minute of the day building. They mine and hunt etc. just like everyone else and if they have a desire for money can make money from those activities too. Shopkeepers make the most money as far as I see and deservedly so. Most of us are not shopkeepers or builders and are lucky to make 4,500 coins in a week from daily and weekly goals. To me, good builders who are good enough to get paid once we go to 1.0 (all we are doing now is practice) have a very nice extra income if income is their goal. Large builders (good or bad at it) make cities and will get tax income too as an extra income and be the wealthiest people in the game with or without footfall. Most people don’t turn Boundless into a competition for money though. Activity bonuses provide money for any purchases we need. We hunt for fun. We mine and gather for fun. We explore for fun. We build for fun. We either craft what we need, or, save our activity bonuses to pay for warps and whatever we wish to buy as a shortcut. Most players the entire argument about money is really irrelevant to the game as money is not necessary no matter what your favorite activity is. We don’t play the money competition that seems to drive a small (but very vocal) percentage. We just enjoy the activities and don’t do them for profit or prestige.


#255

Othe options for this would be;
Hidden coin creates(treasure)
mobs dropping coin upon death.

Maybe the reason why footfall is controversial as a supply of coin is because is influence by players decisions, but isn’t that what is intended :thinking: player base economy?

i am not an expert by any means but this is still a game and i dont want to end up playing economy simulation, i already work 40hrs a week i don’t want another part time job.


#256

Hidden coin crates would be nice. Perhaps when Rough Oort moves from a meteor reward to something you mine up, and meteors become a coin crate hunting thing, then there would be a reason to do meteors and make it worth the time sink you put into clearing it solo or with a group.

I’ve always disliked the idea of farming monsters for game currency. It’s boring but that’s obviously just a personal opinion. Killing bears or boars in a random forest that drops 3 gold always felt extremely stupid.

If we have monsters in this game that are tailored specifically around the idea of protecting some sort of money crate then I can see how hidden crates can and mobs dropping coin could work. That kind of creature could very easily be something inspired by a classical dragon design. Hording coin like players do but attack anyone and everything that comes near it.

That would make me excited to hunt monsters.


#257

I think you need stifle that laugh… :stuck_out_tongue: it wasn’t a developer that made that comment, it was me (Stretchious ≠ Developer :frowning: ). It also wasn’t 4500 coin per day, that sum was per week… and that was on a very very good week. Some weeks I may only make 1k in coin between both of those places.

Additionally one of those places isn’t “in” a city… it is a city, which I built with ~800 plots… the other is just 2 vertical plots, in a tucked away place in Therka Market … not prime real-estate by any means;

I’d also say that about 90-95% of my time is spent building… it’s what I enjoy most. It’s what I find most relaxing in the short amount of time that I get to play at the end of the day. I only hunt or mine when I absolutely have to (not really because I want to). I need to grind actual building materials, tools to be able to get those materials, chisels to sculpt those builds with and food to be able to have the stamina to do all of those things.

Now, a shop keeper needs a few skills in crafting to be able to make a couple of request baskets and selling plinths, advertise a little, and the coin comes to them. They get better income with tax deduction skills.

A hunter just needs a few skills in weapons, health and maybe some extra stamina… arm them with a sling bow … and off the go to make money.

A miner may just need a couple of skills in hammer/shovel/axe mastery, maybe a speed and stamina increase and off they go to make money.

Chuck in some a few luck skills and both a hunter and miner can almost double their coin intake.

A builder on the other hand needs a couple of skills in most tool masteries, maybe jump height and grapples too… for those high or awkward places … some points in chisel mastery… plus more tool masteries if they need to work with gems (shame on them if they make a placement mistake with a gem!). All of those then pretty much require you to have the high end tools and chisels… not cheap to make or buy…

You see where I’m going with this?

Most other professions can start earning coin pretty much from the outset… even the shop keep if they trade by hand. I don’t see that kind of instant accessibility to earning coin for a builder.

@Kal-El made a very good point in that all of the other professions sell goods, whereas a builder can only sell services… building services, in a block building game. I’m sorry, but I don’t see all that much of a market for builders - especially if they have to complete with so many other players that primarily enjoy that same aspect of the game.

So what happens to the “less-than-good” builders who won’t be able to earn coin because no one will give them a contract? They’ll likely leave, as the thing they most enjoy doing - even if they’re not as good as others at it - now offers them no monetary reward for their effort. The only thing that I see that could possibly be sold by a builder is a blueprint for a build… but other players would only need to buy those once (maybe twice). There’s a distinct lack of demand for it as either a product or as a service. In all the time I have been playing, I have only ever seen 3 maybe 4 instances of another player requesting the services of a builder, and actually paid them in coin for the job. That’s a lot of builders without a sustained source of income there…

I disagree - if you have limited time to play, you look to purchase what you need from other players, so that you can do the activity you most enjoy doing. If you don’t have any coin coming in… you have more grind and less enjoyment, and you likely won’t continue playing.

By way of example, the reason I have very little coin, is because I buy materials when I don’t have time to mine for them (or the coal required to process the raw materials I do actually have)… this is generally the time that I most want to build and relax and “just enjoy the activities and don’t do them for profit or prestige”.


Ok, let’s try and summarise this …

I don’t think contracts are the answer, especially as @luke-turbulenz was saying that they want contract to be player generated. Personally I feel that they’re just not a sufficient source of income for builders at all - they benefit other play styles, but not builders. Player-to-player contracts would also not inject any new coin into the game.

Maybe there is a need for random system generated weekly contracts as well - reasonably defined by your chosen skills, so you actually have a chance of completing them. That way people can still do what they enjoy, whilst earning rewards from it and satisfying the need for a new coin injection. Although, I would want to see the reward for building contracts to be higher than others though, as it would generally be the only source of sustainable income for builders.

… You’d also obviously need to make it so skill resets had no effect on contracts - such as needing to be defined as a particular profession for at least 7 days before you can get a contract in that profession (or something along those lines).


#258

My main interest is simply exploring. In order to do that I have to mine, gather, build and craft. It’s slow and I don’t get money for doing it, and I spend most of my time not doing what I enjoy the most. However, I do it all for fun and relaxation.

Hunting doesn’t make you money. Selling your gatherings to a crafter or crafting yourself and then selling them to a merchant or to the public makes money (neither of which I do). Most of us simply make whatever money from daily or weekly bonuses and that is plenty in addition to making what we have the time for ourselves. As for your city (which by definition is in a city) if you do the same after 1.0 and make a city then you will be getting the tax. The taxes will be more than a shopkeeper makes likely and far more than the daily and weekly bonuses that are pretty much the entire income for most people. Compared to the taxes, footfall is nothing at all. If you are going to have passive income for builders, then you should have passive income for everyone else too. We do… daily and weekly bonuses are basically passive income as it doesn’t matter what you do whether building, hunting, gathering, or just wandering around and getting a few things on the way you get those bonuses for existing in the game. My only income is passive income at this point and probably always will be as I have zero interest in playing an economics game online. Building, hunting, gathering and exploring are interesting and fun. No income is necessary other than a daily bonus now and then to travel with once or twice a week. Anything above that just accumulates unless you feel like splurging now and then to get a shortcut to getting supplies for doing whatever you like doing. People don’t hoard so much as they simply don’t have things to spend money on if they “get all they can out of their character” as some love to say. So build your city in 1.0 and be wealthy with taxes. I have zero interest in cities in real life, or in Boundless other than they happen to be where transportation is sometimes found. Economics is the thing that most turns me off about Boundless. It’s like a competition and to me Boundless is relaxation rather than competition. If I wanted to play an economics game I would go elsewhere… actually at the moment I do act as a trader in Star Citizen much of the time at the moment. That’s just waiting for full release though when I will almost exclusively be an explorer.

Contracts? To me that’s just another thing to ignore. Don’t care about them for any occupation and unlikely I ever will.


#259

Which is why (no offence intended at all -maybe i still just dont fully understand certain mechanics???) sometimes i feel as if this game favors the communities rather than the solo player (when solo/groups regardless should be on even grounds) - i am barely scraping by on my 2-3k every few hours mining… and crafting… and chopping, just to level up… ++ sell the coal i mine

i just for one cannot wait until the wipe comes… then everyone will be back to day one and would be fair for all (personal opinion) please, if i am misunderstanding - enlighten me? (not aimed at you Elf - is a general question :slight_smile: )


#260

isn’t this sorta like real life? communities prosper at a faster rate than individuals would?

maybe for the first day, you can’t really erase 1000+ hours of experience. the vets will have a experience advantage. (probably a community advantage as well in same cases).


#261

Oh wow, I hadn’t even considered exploring as a profession… that’s even worse off than builders - I definitely can’t think of a way to allow an explorer to gain coin, other than selling completed planet atlases… but then I guess that would make you an explorer / shop keeper :man_shrugging:

The fact that is, you gain some form of material possession from hunting, which can then be sold to others - this qualifies it as making you money (or at the very least “saving” you money if you then make things for yourself). Building doesn’t offer that same form of return unfortunately (neither does exploring).

Unfortunately this is subjective, as nothing has actually been confirmed as to what happens to the tax from the tax rate a viceroy of a settlement is able to set. In all likelihood, if a tax rate is too high, people won’t build there and you’ll get nothing.

Same for me really - I just want to unleash my creativity and build things. Boundless for me is a fun outlet that I can just jump into at the end of the day and get some creative enjoyment out of. I’d like it to stay that way. I actually started building a shop in my city so I could build some more… I made a bunch of shop stands… but the idea of actually stocking the shop and buying/selling doesn’t actually appeal to me… it’s probably why I haven’t finish the build yet :blush:


Just to clarify, my previous post/comments were only intended to show current discrepancies between the earning potential of each profession / play style. Much of the discussion in this thread has revolved around fairness and the potential of a p2w scenario with real-money plots being able to earn you passive coin (especially if you had them spread out in multiple busy locations).