Guild members do not generate footfall

[DKPuncherello]

The wax is kind of annoying, but not that bad.

I find multiple ingredient recipes to be annoying especially with multiple supply chains leading into them. Like pies. But some people like them!

I find grind-y recipes like refined metal blocks to be okay though, with just one ingredient. And I think everyone recognizes the need to have some in game use for endless rock. There can only be so many rainbow rock shops!

As to footfall, when you reference guild people with permissions in the settlement, does that mean guild alignment of the plot OWNER? Or guild alignment of the PLOT itself? That is, if I un-align my plots from all guilds, will it remove all footfall “nerfs”?

[blastronaut]

@james

You need to take the over supply out of the economy. The way you do this is by introducing a guaranteed mechanism for converting resources into coin. Thematically there are a few ways of doing this:

• a game run shop but this has been rejected because we don’t want to make any parts of the world special,
• allow the elder to buy items from players, also rejected for various technical, security and thematic reasons,
• allow players to craft an coin / economy machine that converts items into coin.

I’m excited to read this and see that you all have some great ideas about it already.

I can suggest more possibilities:

• allow players to easily trash items they don’t need. I think rock might be a huge candidate for this.
• create an upgrade machine that can absorb a lot of lower tier items and convert them into few higher tier/rare items
• create a magic/gambling machine that absorbs lower tier items and blocks for random chance of it producing out rare items

All these add value that discourages selling an item at 0c or 1c

The coin machine is a great idea as well for setting minimum values and introducing more coins into the market, but it may have the side effect of limiting exchange of items for which players can not afford to pay the price the machine does or the supplying player doesn’t think there is a market for. For instance, less desirable rock colors may have to be mined directly if a player wants them.

Also, I wish we could sell some items for less than a coin somehow. If we could sell stacks of 100 rock for one price we could move them more easily. If possible a second type of receipt basket and shop stand for bulk items could possibly do it.

[james]

@blastronaut

allow players to easily trash items they don’t need. I think rock might be a huge candidate for this.

Why trash it when the coin machine will convert it into coin?

@blastronaut

create an upgrade machine that can absorb a lot of lower tier items and convert them into few higher tier/rare items

We did consider this, but rejected it - because we think players will get blocked on the “large input → small output” recipe. It’ll be perceived as grind. “I have to mine 100 rocks to get 1 blah. In MC you only need 1 rock to generate blah, etc.”

@blastronaut

create a magic/gambling machine that absorbs lower tier items and blocks for random chance of it producing out rare items

You must be new around here

@blastronaut

Also, I wish we could sell some items for less than a coin somehow. If we could sell stacks of 100 rock for one price we could move them more easily. If possible a second type of receipt basket and shop stand for bulk items could possibly do it.

This will be supported.

---

Unjoking aside - we did consider a sibling machine to the coin machine that was a recycling machine that would take large quantities of lower grade items and return a chance of some higher grade items. But we turned off this idea, as above, because we weren’t confident that players would appreciate the mechanic.

If you’re throwing something away, maybe it’s fun to have a chance of converting it into something better?

But the machine didn’t seem worth the risk of the usual suspects complaining about it.

[Vurtadelic]

Well some will now complain that we don’t have the recycling machine lol

Seriously though, what are we supposed to do with all this growth?

[Kal-El]

The thing I like about this is the ability to generate coin is entirely up to player effort. If I make the machine and grind rock I can always exchange it for coin without wasting time looking for a shop that might be willing to buy it. If the players want more coin then this seems like a good way to bring it into the economy.

[james]

@Vurtadelic

Seriously though, what are we supposed to do with all this growth?

Growth … hmmm … farming maybe?

[blastronaut]

@james

Why trash it when the coin machine will convert it into coin?

Because you’re not at the coin machine or maybe the coin machine consumes time when it’s converting. I’ just throwing out ideas and alternatives here.

[AeneaGames]

@james

Create a reason for coin rich players to purchase items. (Any ideas?)

Yes, more craftable items! So many in fact that it will become hard to just gather and make them all yourself.

Also more consumable items.

And change the food items into sub-categories just like brews.

(in short:

• Well Fed be like the instant brews, works instantly and doesn’t cancel other buffs
• very special, hi end food buffs like teaching, persisting and perhaps shielding, work long term like now
• all the other food buffs like floating, energising, protecting, etc. basically all the ones that are replacements for skill points work alongside the hi end food buffs just like a reviver brew does

this will both get rid of the silly eating meat when on a pie, but also will make sure people will be able to make different type of skillset loadout, now everyone has highest atmosphere protection since they won’t be giving up a shielding or persisting pie

also they will finally sell more
)

[Pfiffel]

@james

You need to slow supply by making resources slower to gather. (But obviously everyone would freak out and screen NEEEERF at me.) Alternatively,

I think there is nothing wrong with some small and gradual adjustments that players can agree on. For example I doubt anyone would object to some slight reductions of Bone/Tallow/Hide drops from high level creatures.

Blocks are trickier of course, it’s hard to come up with a good sink for refined stone when there are such massive gaps between players and a nice sink for the huge quantities some people have can be seen as unreachable or unfair for players just getting started. We definitely could do with some more uses for Growth, Mud and Ancient Corruption - or if you ask me, a closer look at how much of a culprit regeneration bombs seem to be when it comes to over-supply.

Personally I really liked the expensive new blocks, it felt good to finally burn through a chunk of accumulated resources. But of course I see the issue with dedicated builders getting frustrated by that. Perhaps the prestige rework or at least some re-balance talked about a while ago could slightly help in the direction of rewarding builders more, where the coin reward can then be spent on the more expensive to craft blocks/resources.

The economy machine sounds like a good solution, a way to normalize the market. I think it will also make it less overwhelming for new players to get engaged in it if there is a rough guideline of item values. It took me a lot of spreadsheet-ing and hours of running around in shops to finally be confident in buying/selling. Looking forward to hearing the more fleshed-out details!

[blastronaut]

@james

We did consider this, but rejected it - because we think players will get blocked on the “large input -> small output” recipe. It’ll be perceived as grind. “I have to mine 100 rocks to get 1 blah. In MC you only need 1 rock to generate blah, etc.”

Make it alternative recipe. Something like compressing massive amounts of rock converts it into diamonds. This should produce something that is obtainable through other methods, but be less effective that the those methods so that it doesn’t become to the main path to get the item/block.

[anon94355725]

in my case, I would spend a lot of coins on plots. Be able to buy plots from other players would empty my wallet (if people sell it …)

[fidach]

@james

allow players to craft an coin / economy machine that converts items into coin.

I think this is an excellent idea, and I’m glad to see it is something that is being pursued!

Cough, cough:

New ways to get coin

A couple of times i had suggested a recycling machine. I still think this would be a good way to actively generate some income, also would kind of produce some base line values for in game items. It would have to be a very low value income, ie 10 rocks=1c, something like that. And each time a base item is processed it would lose value, to avoid the refined rock xp machine, then recycle the ref rock for same amount of coin as base rock. Using that for an example would give people a choice, do …

(I know I called it a recycle machine, but the purpose is the same as the economy machine)

[Kal-El]

The reason I like this idea is that you can make the number of items the driver in deciding to purchase versus making everything over complicated in order to drive demand for shops. Maybe instead of using complex recipes with 20 ingredients and 3 steps they can have less ingredients for items and many more items.

[blastronaut]

@james

You must be new around here

Definitely. I’m just throwing out ideas for removing oversupply, but I realize it’s delicate to manage player reaction.

As a family of new players the coin machine looks more necessary each day for us as we slowly work through all the feats. The coins are few and far between and it’s going to take a lot of effort to get a decent shop going somewhere with all the competition.

[Aragorn]

@james

But the machine didn’t seem worth the risk of the usual suspects complaining about it.

I’m very interested in trying anything you guys can dream up. I’ve had a lot of fun with the game so far. Every game will have features that some like and some don’t.

I do not intend to offend, but quite frankly speaking, I don’t think these usual suspects do a good job at representing the whole community. Honestly they can be some what of a deterrent to visit and contribute to the discussion. There is a point where “Pete and repeat” get alittle old.

[LyndaFromHR]

James,

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you for engaging on this issue.

@james

@LyndaFromHR

It just a matter of time before a community footfall system is constructed just for coin where everyone runs over plots in 5 minutes and collects their cash each day. Don’t fight the mechanic. Enable the behavior.

Totally disagree here. This path just leads to some players doing all the cheesy things to maximise their gain, and everyone else getting annoyed that playing the game straight doesn’t return the same value.

This is already happening. The advent of malls and portal networks are just players trying to maximize footfall and player density. I will, however, acknowledge and agree that other players would be highly annoyed that anyone would get an advantage from benefiting from a “footfall” farm. I also don’t want to push this issue and instead want to solve for how to support footfall. Perhaps a simple fix for stores and places of interest called a POI Block (Point of Interest) Block that artificially increases footfall when players buy something, sell something, etc. That way active shops can be acknowledged and can benefit.?

@james

@LyndaFromHR

The issue is the economy is contracting and there is insufficient coin coming in the drive economic activity. Removal of bomb-mining was a huge hit to the supply-side of things. For example: I was too low level to take advantage of it before that balance pass went through and lost out. So you had folks sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of coin and resources and anyone afterwards is playing the game as intended. That is totally fine, but the economy isn’t.

I spend upwards of 3 hours a week pricing and scanning shops and find abandoned shops with huge amounts of inventory that are utterly priced out of the market. Their owners nowhere to be found. I also find shops that have tons of resources to sell, but little in the way of buying.

We need massive economic stimulus. The game is in a recession and looking just at footfall isn’t a sufficient enough calculus to assess whether players have more coin or less. It would be better to assess if players feel like its better to grind for resources rather than engaging the economy. At the moment, I think the overwhelming opinion is it is easier to grind than pay money. It should never, ever be that way.

My evaluation is that for the majority of resources there is a huge over supply in the economy. Supply > Demand.

Flint, Rock Salt, Sulphur, Raw Earthyams, cobalt, olivine, tallow, meat (all), vital orbs, pulsating orbs, the list goes on. I agree that oversupply exists, but there is a compelling argument that those that need resources won’t pay for them because the value of a coin is too high. IE: A coin is more valuable than one tallow. But I concede the point of oversupply.

@james

For a few resources there is parity and a really healthy economy: Rough Oort Stone and Shards. Supply = Demand. In this market we can see that the number of resources entering the economy is equal to the number leaving. The market is fluid and is working well. Players can always sell these resources. Players can always buy them. The net result is that there are very few stockpiled resource.

Perhaps Bitter Beans and Saltpeter might be on this list. Its a short list.

@james

For some resources there is under supply: some of the rarer creature drops. Supply < Demand. The price is high and the resource is in demand.

Roadrunner feathers. Very short list.

@james

So my focus is on the majority of items where there is over supply:

1. It’s simply too easy to find and gather almost all resources.
2. Players can gather these easily, quickly, and in volume.
3. Shop owners have spent all their coin, they’re now coin poor, but resource rich.
4. They have more stock than demand wants.
5. Hence you end up with request baskets without any coin. “I don’t need any more bones!!”

1. Concur
2. Concur
3. Concur - this is the major issue because of 1 & 2.
4. Concur - a result of 3.
5. Concur - a result of 4.
   Nothing to argue about here. 100% agreement.

@james

How do you solve over supply:

1. You need to slow supply by making resources slower to gather. (But obviously everyone would freak out and screen NEEEERF at me.) Alternatively,
2. You need to take the over supply out of the economy. The way you do this is by introducing a guaranteed mechanism for converting resources into coin. Thematically there are a few ways of doing this:
   • a game run shop but this has been rejected because we don’t want to make any parts of the world special,
   • allow the elder to buy items from players, also rejected for various technical, security and thematic reasons,
   • allow players to craft an coin / economy machine that converts items into coin.

1. This would be bad. I’m glad you agree on this point.

2. I don’t see a problem with any of the three options. An in-game shop on each world would be a de-facto hub. You could give the community a chance to build the hub on each world, etc. It would be a great opportunity to get the community involved in building your world.

@james

An coin / economy machine would act as a guaranteed purchaser of some resources and would establish a base price for the item in the game. This would allow players to always generate a coin income if they’re willing to gather resources. I do consider this a hack on a pure economy - but there are real world examples.

This machine would:

1. Take resources out of the economy and hence reduce supply.
2. Establish a minimum price that the items can be sold for.
3. Allow the player-player economy to sit above these prices.
4. Allow an arbitrage for players who upgrade their economy machine.
5. Allow players to always generate coin in exchange for collecting resources.
6. Shift shops to focus more on crafted items.
7. Give us a dial per item to reduce supply based on price.

You could do this with an ingame shop, but a singular block that does this is also fine. I believe I mentioned something like this in my Boundless Economics proposals. This is what we would call “Government Purchasing”. This is a standard way to influence an economy and provide stimulus. This is like Quantitative Easing for hard assets. Combine this with more crafted options (Armor and clothing?) and the game will soar!

@james

So an economy machine will reduce over supply without nerfing gathering.

Another solution is to increase demand to match supply. IMO this is much harder, and I’m open to ideas to do this. There are a few options here:

1. New Boundless players will increase demand. (But also increase supply!)
2. Allow coin poor players a mechanism to generate coin to allow them to purchase more item - see the coin / economy machine.
3. Create a reason for coin rich players to purchase items. (Any ideas?)
   We have been thinking about this issue for a while and it is planned for release after the Exoworlds.

Increasing demand is a very challenging proposal. New players need cash infusion to participate in the economy, as you mentioned. 1 and 2 are inextricably linked and as the new player experience improves, so too will the demand curve. The coin machine is just another way to stabilize the market by providing a “floor”.

#3 is an easy concept, but requires dev time. Unique item drops. Either through a dungeon mechanic, elite monsters, or meteors. A unique item has special graphics, stats or something that makes it very unique. Once you add armor and clothing, do the same there. Its a great way to stimulate a truly “luxury” good market and get money flowing between players.

I truly appreciate your well-thought-out and detailed response. The answer is here. Lets make this happen!

[anon42939288]

@LyndaFromHR

portal networks are just players trying to maximize footfall and player density

i 100% portal networks beeing viewed has footfall traps but feel they shod be execpt in someway for the POI idea in 9/10 of the case’s its for a good reason i know with PS 100% of the income we get form the networks goes to buying ort to keep the network runing without that coin or a drastically reduced amount of it we would be unable to run the network and would have to scale back

[FireAngelDth]

Ff goes back into baskets for oortstone or mats to make improvements to the hub as well for Ultima

[TameJames]

This would be like an in-game slot machine. Everyone loves slot machines. I would mine rock all day just to play this!

[Kal-El]

As much as I have complained about certain aspects of footfall. And James said not to bring that up so I will not. I do think that if you use someone’s portal to get to a destination, they deserve something for that. A portal is not like a road that requires nothing more than any other build to maintain. They do have to fuel the portal and as James pointed out, Oort is one of the few resources where supply and demand appear to be in balance. The portal hubs are not getting Oort for 1coin anytime soon.