Guild members do not generate footfall

[blastronaut]

@james

We did consider this, but rejected it - because we think players will get blocked on the “large input -> small output” recipe. It’ll be perceived as grind. “I have to mine 100 rocks to get 1 blah. In MC you only need 1 rock to generate blah, etc.”

Make it alternative recipe. Something like compressing massive amounts of rock converts it into diamonds. This should produce something that is obtainable through other methods, but be less effective that the those methods so that it doesn’t become to the main path to get the item/block.

[anon94355725]

in my case, I would spend a lot of coins on plots. Be able to buy plots from other players would empty my wallet (if people sell it …)

[fidach]

@james

allow players to craft an coin / economy machine that converts items into coin.

I think this is an excellent idea, and I’m glad to see it is something that is being pursued!

Cough, cough:

New ways to get coin

A couple of times i had suggested a recycling machine. I still think this would be a good way to actively generate some income, also would kind of produce some base line values for in game items. It would have to be a very low value income, ie 10 rocks=1c, something like that. And each time a base item is processed it would lose value, to avoid the refined rock xp machine, then recycle the ref rock for same amount of coin as base rock. Using that for an example would give people a choice, do …

(I know I called it a recycle machine, but the purpose is the same as the economy machine)

[Kal-El]

The reason I like this idea is that you can make the number of items the driver in deciding to purchase versus making everything over complicated in order to drive demand for shops. Maybe instead of using complex recipes with 20 ingredients and 3 steps they can have less ingredients for items and many more items.

[blastronaut]

@james

You must be new around here

Definitely. I’m just throwing out ideas for removing oversupply, but I realize it’s delicate to manage player reaction.

As a family of new players the coin machine looks more necessary each day for us as we slowly work through all the feats. The coins are few and far between and it’s going to take a lot of effort to get a decent shop going somewhere with all the competition.

[Aragorn]

@james

But the machine didn’t seem worth the risk of the usual suspects complaining about it.

I’m very interested in trying anything you guys can dream up. I’ve had a lot of fun with the game so far. Every game will have features that some like and some don’t.

I do not intend to offend, but quite frankly speaking, I don’t think these usual suspects do a good job at representing the whole community. Honestly they can be some what of a deterrent to visit and contribute to the discussion. There is a point where “Pete and repeat” get alittle old.

[LyndaFromHR]

James,

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you for engaging on this issue.

@james

@LyndaFromHR

It just a matter of time before a community footfall system is constructed just for coin where everyone runs over plots in 5 minutes and collects their cash each day. Don’t fight the mechanic. Enable the behavior.

Totally disagree here. This path just leads to some players doing all the cheesy things to maximise their gain, and everyone else getting annoyed that playing the game straight doesn’t return the same value.

This is already happening. The advent of malls and portal networks are just players trying to maximize footfall and player density. I will, however, acknowledge and agree that other players would be highly annoyed that anyone would get an advantage from benefiting from a “footfall” farm. I also don’t want to push this issue and instead want to solve for how to support footfall. Perhaps a simple fix for stores and places of interest called a POI Block (Point of Interest) Block that artificially increases footfall when players buy something, sell something, etc. That way active shops can be acknowledged and can benefit.?

@james

@LyndaFromHR

The issue is the economy is contracting and there is insufficient coin coming in the drive economic activity. Removal of bomb-mining was a huge hit to the supply-side of things. For example: I was too low level to take advantage of it before that balance pass went through and lost out. So you had folks sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of coin and resources and anyone afterwards is playing the game as intended. That is totally fine, but the economy isn’t.

I spend upwards of 3 hours a week pricing and scanning shops and find abandoned shops with huge amounts of inventory that are utterly priced out of the market. Their owners nowhere to be found. I also find shops that have tons of resources to sell, but little in the way of buying.

We need massive economic stimulus. The game is in a recession and looking just at footfall isn’t a sufficient enough calculus to assess whether players have more coin or less. It would be better to assess if players feel like its better to grind for resources rather than engaging the economy. At the moment, I think the overwhelming opinion is it is easier to grind than pay money. It should never, ever be that way.

My evaluation is that for the majority of resources there is a huge over supply in the economy. Supply > Demand.

Flint, Rock Salt, Sulphur, Raw Earthyams, cobalt, olivine, tallow, meat (all), vital orbs, pulsating orbs, the list goes on. I agree that oversupply exists, but there is a compelling argument that those that need resources won’t pay for them because the value of a coin is too high. IE: A coin is more valuable than one tallow. But I concede the point of oversupply.

@james

For a few resources there is parity and a really healthy economy: Rough Oort Stone and Shards. Supply = Demand. In this market we can see that the number of resources entering the economy is equal to the number leaving. The market is fluid and is working well. Players can always sell these resources. Players can always buy them. The net result is that there are very few stockpiled resource.

Perhaps Bitter Beans and Saltpeter might be on this list. Its a short list.

@james

For some resources there is under supply: some of the rarer creature drops. Supply < Demand. The price is high and the resource is in demand.

Roadrunner feathers. Very short list.

@james

So my focus is on the majority of items where there is over supply:

1. It’s simply too easy to find and gather almost all resources.
2. Players can gather these easily, quickly, and in volume.
3. Shop owners have spent all their coin, they’re now coin poor, but resource rich.
4. They have more stock than demand wants.
5. Hence you end up with request baskets without any coin. “I don’t need any more bones!!”

1. Concur
2. Concur
3. Concur - this is the major issue because of 1 & 2.
4. Concur - a result of 3.
5. Concur - a result of 4.
   Nothing to argue about here. 100% agreement.

@james

How do you solve over supply:

1. You need to slow supply by making resources slower to gather. (But obviously everyone would freak out and screen NEEEERF at me.) Alternatively,
2. You need to take the over supply out of the economy. The way you do this is by introducing a guaranteed mechanism for converting resources into coin. Thematically there are a few ways of doing this:
   • a game run shop but this has been rejected because we don’t want to make any parts of the world special,
   • allow the elder to buy items from players, also rejected for various technical, security and thematic reasons,
   • allow players to craft an coin / economy machine that converts items into coin.

1. This would be bad. I’m glad you agree on this point.

2. I don’t see a problem with any of the three options. An in-game shop on each world would be a de-facto hub. You could give the community a chance to build the hub on each world, etc. It would be a great opportunity to get the community involved in building your world.

@james

An coin / economy machine would act as a guaranteed purchaser of some resources and would establish a base price for the item in the game. This would allow players to always generate a coin income if they’re willing to gather resources. I do consider this a hack on a pure economy - but there are real world examples.

This machine would:

1. Take resources out of the economy and hence reduce supply.
2. Establish a minimum price that the items can be sold for.
3. Allow the player-player economy to sit above these prices.
4. Allow an arbitrage for players who upgrade their economy machine.
5. Allow players to always generate coin in exchange for collecting resources.
6. Shift shops to focus more on crafted items.
7. Give us a dial per item to reduce supply based on price.

You could do this with an ingame shop, but a singular block that does this is also fine. I believe I mentioned something like this in my Boundless Economics proposals. This is what we would call “Government Purchasing”. This is a standard way to influence an economy and provide stimulus. This is like Quantitative Easing for hard assets. Combine this with more crafted options (Armor and clothing?) and the game will soar!

@james

So an economy machine will reduce over supply without nerfing gathering.

Another solution is to increase demand to match supply. IMO this is much harder, and I’m open to ideas to do this. There are a few options here:

1. New Boundless players will increase demand. (But also increase supply!)
2. Allow coin poor players a mechanism to generate coin to allow them to purchase more item - see the coin / economy machine.
3. Create a reason for coin rich players to purchase items. (Any ideas?)
   We have been thinking about this issue for a while and it is planned for release after the Exoworlds.

Increasing demand is a very challenging proposal. New players need cash infusion to participate in the economy, as you mentioned. 1 and 2 are inextricably linked and as the new player experience improves, so too will the demand curve. The coin machine is just another way to stabilize the market by providing a “floor”.

#3 is an easy concept, but requires dev time. Unique item drops. Either through a dungeon mechanic, elite monsters, or meteors. A unique item has special graphics, stats or something that makes it very unique. Once you add armor and clothing, do the same there. Its a great way to stimulate a truly “luxury” good market and get money flowing between players.

I truly appreciate your well-thought-out and detailed response. The answer is here. Lets make this happen!

[anon42939288]

@LyndaFromHR

portal networks are just players trying to maximize footfall and player density

i 100% portal networks beeing viewed has footfall traps but feel they shod be execpt in someway for the POI idea in 9/10 of the case’s its for a good reason i know with PS 100% of the income we get form the networks goes to buying ort to keep the network runing without that coin or a drastically reduced amount of it we would be unable to run the network and would have to scale back

[FireAngelDth]

Ff goes back into baskets for oortstone or mats to make improvements to the hub as well for Ultima

[TameJames]

This would be like an in-game slot machine. Everyone loves slot machines. I would mine rock all day just to play this!

[Kal-El]

As much as I have complained about certain aspects of footfall. And James said not to bring that up so I will not. I do think that if you use someone’s portal to get to a destination, they deserve something for that. A portal is not like a road that requires nothing more than any other build to maintain. They do have to fuel the portal and as James pointed out, Oort is one of the few resources where supply and demand appear to be in balance. The portal hubs are not getting Oort for 1coin anytime soon.

[LyndaFromHR]

@james

@blastronaut

create an upgrade machine that can absorb a lot of lower tier items and convert them into few higher tier/rare items

We did consider this, but rejected it - because we think players will get blocked on the “large input → small output” recipe. It’ll be perceived as grind. “I have to mine 100 rocks to get 1 blah. In MC you only need 1 rock to generate blah, etc.”

@blastronaut

create a magic/gambling machine that absorbs lower tier items and blocks for random chance of it producing out rare items

You must be new around here

I think if there was a “gambling block” that could be made and keyed to certain resources then players could build “gambling halls” and whatnot. Additionally, it would give you the option of making minigames if you so chose. On top of that, the way to incentivize usage would be to pay out based on the resource put in. one iron bar might have a “jackpot” of 1000 coins, but playing with diamond deco blocks might have a jackpot of 150k or so. The winner and the beacon owner both get a cut of the winnings, 90/10 split and you cannot use gambling blocks are beacons you have permissions at.

Boom - now you have a new side economy that thrives on resource consumption, entirely operated by players and can have all sorts of games and calibrated by the resources put in. Want a high-rollers lounge? Diamond deco blocks only. Slots at the Tropicana? Copper ore.

[Tonezone]

I am glad to see that the devs are looking into this issue.

@LyndaFromHR

Flint, Rock Salt, Sulphur, Raw Earthyams, cobalt, olivine, tallow, meat (all), vital orbs, pulsating orbs, the list goes on. I agree that oversupply exists, but there is a compelling argument that those that need resources won’t pay for them because the value of a coin is too high. IE: A coin is more valuable than one tallow. But I concede the point of oversupply.

Tallow has a well-defined in game value that is presently accessible. 5 tallow = 1 fresh vital essence. And 1 fresh vital essence is worth at least a coin (or at least it should be. see below).

@james

An coin / economy machine would act as a guaranteed purchaser of some resources and would establish a base price for the item in the game. This would allow players to always generate a coin income if they’re willing to gather resources. I do consider this a hack on a pure economy - but there are real world examples.

There already a mechanic in game similar to the coin machine - the ability to reduce most items into essence, and the essence can be used to produce high prestige and aesthetically-pleasing blocks. Introducing a coin-price for items whilst still having the essence system in place would inevitably result in different values applied to the items and leave some recipes completely unused and simply a source of noise.

I like the essence system a lot and the introduction of marble, mosaic, and refined gravel brought value to some items that had been worthless before. I believe that essence and its counterparts in wax and brick are more fun and interesting than just getting “coin”. There are a few problems, but I believe with small changes they could be fixed. First off the production of these desired blocks involves two different ingredients used in a fixed ratio in all block-crafting recipes. At present, there appears to be more fresh vital essence than ancient vital essence, and from what I have been observing, the price of all items which are cooked into fresh essence is falling whereas the price of fossils is rising. We either need some way to change one into the other (aren’t fossils just old bones), or different ratios of the ingredients used in different recipes.

So, all items have a price floor which is what they can be converted to in essence, and the ratio between essence and currency is determined by fiat (how much people are willing to pay for prestige and aesthetics). Any item which cannot find a use can be broken down. More item breakdown recipes can be added. This provides a minimum value for all items although it does not address the issues of coin generation or consumption. Providing a fixed essence to coin conversion could allow players a way to generate coin though, and would also essentially fix the coin-to-prestige ratio.

So, in essence:

1. There is an implied ratio between many in game items through the essence system. 1 tallow = 1/10 creature mantle. However, this system is incomplete because of the lack of conversion between fresh vital essence and ancient vital essence.
2. There is some natural economy evolving around block prestige. (E.g. the price of iron has sunk a bit since the introduction of marble and mosaic, but it’s still easy to find people willing to buy it because of it’s prestige value).
3. Block additives form a tiered system. E.g. a 2 coin wax (tier 1) will allow you to increase a block’s prestige from 6 to 12. Super-enriched bonding agent (tier 2) allows you to make refined blocks into ~50 prestige.
4. Oversupply of certain items can be addressed by tying up the loose ends of the current prestige-based value system.
5. Rich players can be enticed to buy more stuff by giving them higher tier prestige blocks. (E.g. Tier 1 - wax, 2c, 6 prestige, Tier 2 - super-enriched bonding agent - 100 coins, 50 prestige, Tier 3 - unobtainium paste 10000 coins, 200 prestige, etc). The economy of Wax/super-enriched bonding agent has already developed in a way that wax is cheaper per prestige but gives lower prestige blocks.

One final point:
Why isn’t there a recipe that uses the color of sedimentary rock, sand, growth, etc? I don’t care that nature decided that this beautiful warm cherry color had to be sedimentary. Nature is wrong and warm cherry makes great marble and mosaic!!! But, it sure takes along time to convert these rocks to metamorphic or igneous. I would kill for a block changing machine:

@james

Create a reason for coin rich players to purchase items. (Any ideas?)

Give us cool novelty stuff that automates mundane tasks (like block changing). It does not provide value, but saves time.

[LyndaFromHR]

I appreciate the input, but this doesn’t resolve the issue of a total lack of coin in the first place. This only addresses the perceived value of goods, and not the purchasing power of consumers. What James proposed is to address the purchasing power through infinite demand - a novel and necessary solution. It provides a value floor for goods and establishes a way for the developers to quantitatively measure economic activity.

[AeneaGames]

@LyndaFromHR

Perhaps a simple fix for stores and places of interest called a POI Block (Point of Interest) Block that artificially increases footfall when players buy something, sell something, etc. That way active shops can be acknowledged and can benefit.?

And the people creating the malls/markets would not benefit from their work?

[crypticworlds]

If there’s an over supply of certain resources, do you think creating items and crafting recipes for those items that people will want to use can help solve this problem? Look at the gems. Very few crafting recipes for any of them and all of them are pretty easy to obtain on your own even with a halfway decent hammer. Even easier with a T6 god hammer that hollows mountains in seconds.

I do think that part of fixing any sort of over supply of an item is to simply provide more outlets that players can use them for. Such as additional crafting recipes for items that players are going to craft or use on a regular basis. Having more tools that are alternatives to hammer, axe, shovel would be nice. Having more weapons besides Fist and Slingbow would be nice. Perhaps having a weapon or item that requires some sort of ammunition or portable power source that you would also craft.

Just some ideas @james. I do think having more crafting material sinks helps with any sort of over supply of an item but also makes the price of items that are under supplied more valuable but those aren’t the issue in the game’s economy. It’s simply not having enough material sinks in items that are going to be regularly used up.

Thoughts on this?

[Tonezone]

@LyndaFromHR

I appreciate the input, but this doesn’t resolve the issue of a total lack of coin in the first place. This only addresses the perceived value of goods, and not the purchasing power of consumers. What James proposed is to address the purchasing power through infinite demand - a novel and necessary solution. It provides a value floor for goods and establishes a way for the developers to quantitatively measure economic activity.

In the same way that you can measure the utility of items by how often they are put into coin generators, you can measure how often they are converted into essence.

Different rates of coin generation and item generation of course result in either inflation or deflation, and some fixed connection between them would anchor values. I was pointing out what has resulted in relative stability for many in game items, and how other items could also be fixed by hooking in to this system. If the coin generator produced different ratios than the essence generator does, then there will be extraneous systems. E.g. 1 tallow is worth 1/10th of a creature mantle in terms of essence. If the coin generator resulted in 1 tallow is worth 1/5th of a creature mantle, then people would have to memorize when to use each machine and it would be tedious. IMO connecting to the existing system is cleaner.

[LyndaFromHR]

Why wouldn’t they? “Interaction” could be as simple as using a portal. Perhaps devs will stipulate that players need to actually interact with the block, sorta like a “like” feature. I “like” this mall, so it gives them a bonus to footfall for a week.

[LyndaFromHR]

That is an opportunity for the developers to have a dynamic system. “THE OORTIAN ALLIANCE NEEDS YOU” kind of thing. Tallow in high demand this week, diamonds are not worth putting into the block.

They could make it a true market block that has a variable price based on player supply with a floor set by developers. Players don’t sell a lot of roadrunner feathers to the market? Price keeps going up.

To emphasize, it would only accept goods and provide coin and not sell goods between players. The entire point is to help this become a price floor reference point.

Someone might ask “what’s to encourage players from selling on shop stands?”
Profit! This is only a floor and it takes materials out of the economy. If the game started buying roadrunner feathers at 5k each, you would see stands at 7 and 8k in a hurry.
That is also totally fine. If you give folks more money, you want them to spend it.

[Mayumichi]

I’m no economist but have you explored the idea that the coin machine prices would adjust based on current player trade prices? How does that change the model?

I also agree that coin is too valuable now, some inflation might be a good thing.