Mining Progression, New Hammers, T4 Worlds, a solution

General
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Probably the best post I’ve read all day. Thank you. Before you guys read my post, read @Studiaux 's post.

I guess I feel bomb mining the way it was kept powerful folks powerful in that I couldn’t afford to do it enough, but I was at the time when I “needed” it to progress. So perhaps that is just circumstantial. Maybe I don’t feel so because it’s me.

However I feel the end game grind is absolutely necessary to preserve the longevity of the game, but it should ABSOLUTELY be enjoyable - you can’t finish the content of the game in a sitting and still have the desire to play - but I am not one to be able to suggest how to accomplish that.

Straight up, good post Studiaux.

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I would like to chip in here - EVE Online does NOT really let you solo that well, you’re either dependant on the market or help from friends that you have made, ESPECIALLY when it comes to crafting and gathering resources.

This is both to your post and otherwise the quote you did :slight_smile:

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Kinda depends on which aspect you play in EVE. Generally speaking, EVE is tough to solo unless you have lots of alts. Simple solo stuff such as building or market trading does require alts. PVP…kinda sorta if you like solo pvp…but prepare to get ganged up. But yeah, I agree that Eve isn’t solo friendly…generally speaking.

But back to the MMO thing. I think alot of people picked up this game thinking it’s a high resolution Minecraft. As such, they are trying to play a building game thinking they have unlimited resources. But they don’t. Until they introduce private severs with creative mode.

This is open sandbox MMO that has constraints on resources and time. There are opportunity cost to each aspect of the game you play. But the problem is alot of people don’t realize this yet.

I prefer the motto of “Play smarter. Avoid working harder”.

Solo in this game is working harder. Collaboration is playing smarter.

PS- I’m currently solo but will soon have my own guild as I think it’s more fun

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i like build, mining, craft, all in this game XD, but my favorite is the mining, i agree with: ‘‘what happen if you have 5000 of each gem’’? but disagree at the same time, why? its simple, when you complete your targets you dont need more of that items, but you can sell, not faster than you farm it, and you always have competition in others shops, in my case i love bomb mining, but no to get rich, i love it because i use all my resources in my build, its my target, when i finish my build, i dont need more the bomb mining, in boundless to build a good home, do you need tons, tons, tons and tons of resources to build it, with end crafts, boundless was created whit the special target to build very very god homes, the second target are the hunt, its very fun go to hunt in party, i love it too, well in my bounless experience i learn the next:

1.- you need tons of resources for your build, some player only can play on the weekends, and they progresion whitout bomb minig are very stressed, the economy is afected, if the miner extract a lot of resources with bombs are good, why? because the prices are low and all things in the game are cheapest, more accesible, that its great because the new player can buy that things and they think: ‘‘good economy’’. Many people now thought than the bomb mining its bad, but the recipes need a lot of resources, for example: the advance power coils, need titanium gems and anothers things, rare things, and the recipe need a lot of them. 360 gems are 50 compacted gem blocks, and that are 64 refined gems, ok whit that, you can craft 20 tools or 20 weapons or gears, plus another gem things, only that whit 360 rought gems, 20 for my its poor, because you need expend a lot of time to found 360 gems, and the durability its so so, and dont forget the power coils required to craft the gem things, more gems after start to craft the gem things, well in my opinion the bomb mining its good for the economy.

solution to balance the bomb mining and the hammer mining: i think in remove the forged hammer debuf, for 2 reazons: 1 dont work correctly, the tip say hit with 60% of the damage, when i equip a diamond hammer whit 8 power, epic damage, 5 hammer mastery and epic hammer mastery i hit 5500, whit a forget hammer (3x3) i hit 1700, my calculator say me than the 60% of 5500 are 3300 where i hit 3300? XD. 2 if you are spend time, resources and you are risk your forge ingredients to craft a good forged items, why add a debuff? if the devs want balance the minig bomb whit hte hammers a solution its this.

2.- boundless is no the typical game than you need a lot of money to do someone in the game,the game its based in build (again) you only enjoy the game building your dream, dont break this whit the coins please.

add: i agree whit a player (i dont remember who), he say: ‘‘the devs need eat and pay at the workers’’ yes!!! its very important this, but… for the kind of the game, the dves may be think in add more things and benefits in the shop, idk… like a events for example, if you buy cubits in this period you will recive a bonus, its a suggestion, or… whit the titans in a future update, limit the entrance, and in the shop add tickets for more daily entrances, i think, idk.

@Steggs101

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add: reduce the max radious for the bombs to 5, and add another ingredient to craft bomb charges, to get more balance between hammers and bombs.

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I like the idea.
But it sounds too complicated to implement at a prog level.
I was thinking about a transmute materials mechanic
Some MMOs have this system and it works rather well.
Like

Alchemist tree
Transmute materials skill
Requires 1 brew crafting lvl/1 tech (maybe it could be a total different skill tree)
144 copper ores for 36 iron ores
144 iron for 36 silver/gold
144 gold/silver for 36 titanium
36 titanium ores 1 random gem

This would allow players to just grind in low lvl planets and have a feeling of ‘progression’.

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image

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That’s pretty much in a nutshell what the game is, you hit iron tools and then it’s a straight uphill climb.

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Sorry. I was away for a day or would have replied sooner.

I get the progression thing, I do, and I agree with part of it. Progression isn’t just earning the next couple skill points. We’ve also got to have challenges in game that present progressively more difficult tasks and rewards and right now there’s a mid-tier gap. I used iron tools until I had enough titanium to jump to that. Now I’m working on obtaining advanced coils for all my crafting stations. So far, I have five each for my workbench, my centraforge and my extractor. I did that initially by grinding away with my iron hammer on Serpent until I had enough diamonds to craft the 10 basic coils I needed to step up. En route and to avoid spending a couple weeks of gameplay doing nothing but digging snake holes, I went out searching for other resources and growing my alts. Eventually, my main had enough skill points and resources to spec for bomb mining and that made it easier. I still never found hundreds of gems in a few hours like the higher level players, but I had enough diamonds in probably four to five hours over two days to make my five advanced coils for the workbench. That was my progression toward a specific goal. Maybe not pretty and obviously not the way many of the other commenters on this topic would have or are doing it but I had fun doing it. It made the process less of a grind, less of a de-incentive to like and enjoy the game. But I still don’t get or understand how any of that hurt you. Which is my point.

Both you and the devs have decided that I’m basically a cheater. Before you jump on me I did not say you called me that but by telling me that I’m using an exploit, you’re implying that I’m getting ahead of other players by playing unfairly, which to me means “cheater.” Why? Because I sought out the resources that would let me bomb mine instead of doing something else? Because I changed my spec to suit bomb mining when I was able to actually craft a few of them and try it out?

“Bomb mining the way it was was absolutely an exploit. Key your skills in just right and you can game the mechanics that are supposed to prevent you from doing exactly what you are doing so that you can dodge the failsafe. That is an exploit.”

“Game the mechanics?” “Dodge the failsafe?” I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you’re saying with these specific remarks. What mechanics am I gaming? What failsafe have I dodged? The devs provided a world that is destructible. Indeed, the whole point of the game is to seek out resources to build your builds. Some of those resources require that you break things. The bombs break things. But it’s an exploit to use them to break rocks? I simply don’t see how this argument works. The fact that someone who hasn’t spec’ed for bomb mining or who can’t make or afford to buy bombs yet has to hammer away at the rocks and thus finds their gems at a substantially slower rate that the player who has bombs and has spent their skill points to be able to bomb mine, is a player choice, just like being a crafter or a healer or a hunter is a player choice. We don’t get to be everything at once and there’s always going to be someone who’s better at some things than we are. The fact that someone else is doing something we don’t want to do ourselves just isn’t enough in my mind to make it unfair. They’ve got to be hurting me somehow to make it unfair. How is someone having more diamonds than me unfair when I can still just go and find my own?

Similarly, as Studiaux has commented, nerfing the technique now only punishes people who want to catch up to those players who were able to bomb mine prior to this latest patch and I’ll add that that’s what hurts the game economy. That’s what makes some resources that we need in order to achieve those end game levels sooo difficult and time-consuming to obtain.

OK, I’m done. For the progression discussion, I’m all for progression and that might be a more obvious and linear process currently if silver and gold tools were appropriately useful and they used to be, well, somewhat, many patches and several months ago. As it is, like many if not most players, I just skipped them now as useless so-called upgrades. Like many of the posts above say, this results in a bit of a gulf between your first iron tool and end-game tools with a lot of nothing but grind in between. I don’t, however, agree with the implication expressed above that players should be restricted in the game somehow from jumping from a T3 direct to a T5 or anywhere else if they want to spec that way. The rocks are already harder, the mobs are already harder, that’s the progression and some people will happily exchange a dozen deaths for that one special resource they just have to have for their particular goals. And there is still a restriction in the game, don’t forget, blinksecs, except that the devs gave us portals and enough players cooperate to build networks that let us circumvent it. That’s the main reason players can jump tiers, though that’s not an exploit. Right? 

Then again, this isn’t an MMO that gives us any kind of quests other than the grindy feats and grindy objectives. We give ourselves our goals with our builds, with our character specs, and obviously we’re all ok with that or we wouldn’t be playing this game. Maybe I’m missing the point on progression too…

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I think his point is that bombs do bonus damage to resources, but it was found there was a narrow window of skill specs that allowed the bomb to destroy the rocks but not the resources. Why would bombs do bonus damage to resources? Hence the comments.

We’ve never had a dev come here and say definitively if bomb mining was ever intended or not.

I wanted’to clarify that is all.

People who get burned out, angry, n’ quit the game because the game allowed them to progress faster than they were ready for seemed to be a common occurrence in the last few weeks. While some players like that choice, there’s a lot who get frustrated with it, so it’s hard’to balance for.

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Good points, thanks. I wasn’t aware that bombs did bonus damage to resources. I thought that resource blocks were simply stronger than the surrounding rock, hence the tight-wire of balancing your skills and bomb strength to destroy the rock but not the resources. And I certainly get the frustration factor but for me, that comes from digging through an alleged hot spot for gems, tunneling back and forth in stupid grid patterns at the appropriate depths…and still not finding any gems just as, prior to this most recent patch, searching for rare surface resources was utterly unbearable. A week ago I ran, ran mind you, entirely around Alnitans, (or was it Beservrona? - One or the other…) and found, are you ready, exactly zero glowcaps. Compare that to, what, six weeks ago, when the devs rolled this new universe out to us and I was able to find a hundred plus on the same run. The new patch addresses resource respawn and, thus far, seems to be, frankly, much better than I expected. I don’t know if there are too many surface resources now, though some might think so, but going back to hammer for gem mining has been extremely disappointing for me. Two hours of tunneling nets 26 topaz…but I don’t have AOE hammers or any kind of food or brew buffs to ease that tedium. I foresee a lot of frustration, alas, from that in my future.

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as i pointed out in another thread:
you actually can be a pure gatherer!
get an axe, a hammer, some power skill, fast run skill thats all you need, and then run over the worlds and gather stuff.
farm fibrous and stuff, later sulphur and inki leafes sell them to a good req basket, use the money for a new iron or copper axe, depending on where you are gathering (and got tons of money left after doing).

you can do that, nobody will do it, because doing the same thing is boring.
so everybody will reach a point where he/she wants to make a place to craft and store stuff or start hunting a bit (wich combines very well with gathering to me) or maybe mine a bit, do whatever you want, nobody stops you from doing whatever you want.

you want to gather without being connected to a settlement? so you expect that weapons can be crafted just from leafes and food? how would this work out as economy?

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Footfall incentivizes having plots near portals and in the middle of cities. It doe not reward every building the same way. I can build the same building at a portal hub and in a secluded location. The building near the hub will do better as the mechanic rewards location and prestige.

I am not sure if this is a good thing or not. But it is the way it works. I keep reading about people that claim to have a few strategically placed plots and are making 10k a day in footfall. Is that how the developers intended this to work?

Edit: sorry this is of topic

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What I don’t understand is why titanium tools require power coils, which requires aloooot of diamonds! If I was already in the position to get diamonds why would I then need titanium?

:thinking:

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Or do what sky saga used to do, have 1 recipe for tools in this case swift, heavy and crit, but the variable would be the base metal, depending on what metal you use changes the attributes. although this wouldn’t work for chisels.

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I used to share this stance, as a I’ve mentioned before, but I have to backtrack on that a bit. While it seems like a monumental task, after crafting my first 15 normal workbench power coils I have to say I was wrong about the “progression wall”. While it seems more logical titanium would be accessible to help you mine diamonds, this is where it is so we must adapt, myself included.

If you can grind out 40 diamonds you would have enough to bulk craft 5 power coils, which would give you 500 power to make the titanium tools. 80 diamonds will bulk craft you 10 compact diamonds. Enough for 2 bulk crafts to equal 10 power coils. 2 more compact diamond single crafts would give you 12 total compact diamond for 3 bulk crafts, 100 diamonds total. It may be less efficient than a mass craft, but I’m willing to take the hit if it lets me get past this point where I feel I’m not progressing.

My advice to anyone stuck at this wall like I was is just grind out the 40 diamonds with an iron hammer and bulk craft your 5 coils to get to titanium tools. Hopefully you’ll find the titanium you’ll need for your first set of tools while you search for diamonds like I did. Obviously this only applies to people who would rather go solo than play the market.

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Minecraft did the same thing, and it was much simpler. Just 2 sticks, and 3 Wood/Stone/Iron/Gold/Diamonds to craft most tools. Only exception being swords which needed 1 stick and 2 materials and shovels needing 2 stick and 2 materials, all based on how you move them around in the crafting screen.

But this game just complicates it right from the very beginning, and makes it worse as it goes on.

What the game, and players, don’t understand is that the game seems to be running on ‘Tiers’ for Items. Wood and Stone is ‘Tier 1’, and and Copper and Iron tools are ‘Tier 2’. The thing about is, is that all the tiers are linked in the game. Tier 1 has very basic requirements, while Tier 2 needs many extra requirements, no matter if it’s tools, machines, blocks, and so on.

However, since you can play however you want, you could end up progressing in just 1 area, progressing just in tiers for Tools for example. And the sudden jump in requirements, for how very easy it is to unlock said tools, is unreal, instant, and not built up at all.

Taking Minecraft as the perfect example for mostly doing it right, again we just look at tools for the best example. You’re mining with wood to get stone. Stone is used in a lot of the basic recipies, including making a furnace.

Next you’re looking for Iron. While mining around for iron, you’re going to find Coal, a LOT of coal most likely unless you get really lucky finding iron early. But still, usually you find coal first, and start stock piling it, and eventually you do find Iron. But first, you need to Smelt that Iron, which lucky you collected a whole lot of Coal for. Very rarely will you now find enough coal for Iron Smelting.

And of course, Iron is the next step for your tools, the next Tier, but also Iron is used in a lot of other Recipies too. Shears, Flint and Steel, Buckets, and so on. Unlocking Iron unlocks both the next tools, and the next Tier of Recipies to use and create.

Using Iron, you can now mine a lot faster, working your up down deeper, collecting more Iron, a lot more Coal, now some Gold, and eventually in the depths of 12-16 finding some diamonds. Diamonds being the final tier, Lasting much more longer than any of the other tools, especially when enchanted, and Diamods are needed in the highest tier items.

Namely the best tools, the best armor, the Jukebox, Firework Star, but more important, 1 is needed for the Enchanted Table, to unlock being able to Enchant items.

Boundless doesn’t have that. The items you passively collect doesn’t work with unlocking the next. Finding Copper and smelting it into bars alone isn’t enough to unlock copper tools. You also need 3 other ingrediants not found while mining. You also rarely get different size fossils, Ancient Tech, Coal <— Totally not enough of that to smelt all your ore, unless you’re specifically on a coal world, and even then it can be pretty hard to get enough. And of course, lots of Iron, Copper, and other materials in higher level worlds like Silver and Gold.

But A, you don’t get nearly enough Coal to smelt all the Ore you collect. and B, you have to go farm 3 extra items not to do with Mining to craft the next tier tools, and it gets even worse the higher the Tier.

Minecraft works because Progression was simple, with really the only change between tools being they last longer and broke stuff faster. But in Boundless you have to work massively harder to collect the materials that you don’t mine for, hunting down resources, smelting it (Which uses up your already limited Coal), and crafting it in a specific machine to get 1 ingrediant and use nothing else from that machine.

Worse yet, the higher the world level, the worse your tools get, taking longer to break blocks, some worlds even getting ARMOR for their blocks to break, which wears out the Durability faster, so the only differences between tools in Boundless, is that they get slower, do less, cost more energy and break faster. But you can break the blocks on the next level up without taking 10+ hits.

So really, nothing changes. You change the materials, you get a better Tier weapon, but it works the exact same on the right planet only. Nothing is different. And that’s just plain boring.

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You don’t need to have friends, or interact with any player at all. The only thing you need is to sell and buy to make progress. Or have alts and do everything for yourself, but it’ll be really time consuming.
Besides that, there are no ‘instances’ here WOW for example forces you to play with 5, 10 or 25 people to get the best gear, so, yes there are a lot of MMO that forces you to play with others, not this game.
For example, I use forged tools and I have no idea how the forge works, but I just sell my stuff and buy the tools on a shop, and I never met the guy who craft them.

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