Prestige for each block/prop

[Pseudonym84]

I’m just going by assumptions here, but if you press . and bring up the debug screen, you can see certain values by the prestige value of the beacon you’re standing in.

There are things such as ‘exotic bonus’, ‘build ratio’, and ‘chisel ratio’, I’m paraphrasing seeing as I’m not in-game right now, but all those values add up to a percentage which is displayed at the end - such as 127%

The only thing I’m certain of is that the percentage increases the ‘base value’ of your prestige by said amount.

I understand we won’t have the debug screen on launch, and that there will be further complexity and nuance added to the current prestige system, but it’ll be figured out eventually. The internet always finds a way, and someone will be stamping out optimal templates before long.

@luke-turbulenz mentioned making blocks upgradable, essentially making all blocks equal;

@luke-turbulenz

The option to improve blocks, via crafting would mean they all have the same prestige rating.

I am curious however, and maybe either @luke-turbulenz or someone else in the know can fill me in here, but will this crafting upgrade also apply to mud, dirt, leaves, ice, and so on?

I suppose I could look past the fact that crafters are upgrading mud.

[Spoygg]

My view on the whole prestige thing is that all blocks should be almost equal, i.e. differences should be minimal. Like lowest value and highest value have be something like 80 and 100, so putting 100 of each would make difference of only 2000 (8000 against 10000) All other values would be something between 80 and 100. That would give a bit of reward to players to invest in acquiring high value mats, but still wouldn’t make that much of a difference. And if you decide to make a build of 10000 blocks you would be greatly rewarded, 800k against 1m, that would give 200k additional prestige, but not double of triple or quadruple

[Pseudonym84]

I can potentially see some groups just opting out of the prestige system all together, and building their cities to simply look beautiful and prestigious. If I feel restricted in any way, I may be tempted to go that route myself. Let other cities wage a prestige war against one another while I simply try to create something worth visiting.

Even the block upgrading is a little odd. Why would I want to upgrade a block to look exactly the same as the block before it? For some arbitrary prestige value?

I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m not a fan of algorithms deciding ‘prestige’

[Spoygg]

To be honest I really can’t imagine prestige system that would work based on block value. If you build something beautiful from only natural blocks you’re basically at 0 level with prestige (I’ve seem some awesome walls/floors made out of rock).
I think that if anything prestige should be decided by the number/activity of players in a settlement. So, if you have good market, beautiful, properly organized settlement infrastructure, people will join and be active. Also that would motivate people to work more closely together, it wouldn’t be possible for 1 (or small group of) player(s) to figure out algorithm and spam valuable blocks. I have experimented with that (even before alien nest made of furnaces case) with firepits and managed to get prestige to over 200k for a relatively small effort and time. Now that I’m changing the design to something reasonable, I have removed 2 rows of 8 of firepits and prestige dropped for ~20k. I felt a bit sad, you just can’t not feel anything if you want to respect prestige system as it is, but immediately realized that I don’t want to look at it anymore, I want to build what I want how I want

[SWProzee1]

I would be fine if they would delete the prestige system completely !

[Pseudonym84]

And that’s pretty much what it comes down to for me;

@Spoygg

I really can’t imagine prestige system that would work based on block value

Neither can I. I just have strong doubts about any programmer - not just someone at Wonderstuck - coming up with an algorithm that understands creativity, aesthetic value, beauty, and so forth. If they manage to capture that in Boundless, I won’t just be astonished, I’ll be questioning why they haven’t sold the algorithm onto Google for a fortune.

At least until super machine AI rule the planet, we have to rely on actual people to decide what they deem prestigious, beautiful - worth visiting.

My proposed idea below;

Prestige

I’m still new to the whole prestige system, but I’ve been doing some digging with the help of @Dzchan94 and @Spoygg, and we’ve sort of figured out at least some aspects of how the algorithm works, though obviously not entirely. It’s safe to say though that certain blocks are spammable to a certain extend - and will grant you high amounts prestige. Gem Blocks are one of such blocks, and on the flip-side; blocks like natural wood, sand and rock builds won’t net you a whole lot of prestige, so cor…

It has flaws, as mentioned by @luke-turbulenz, that players could potentially lobby for votes. Though I believe the current proposal (without player interaction) has a whole plethora of flaws of it’s own. I don’t think you’ll find a perfect solution to this problem - there will be flaws in any system you put in place, but I still strongly believe that subjectivity is the answer (or at least part of the answer)

Marry the two systems together. Have the algorithm make up 50% (for example) of the value, and the player ‘thumbs up’ account for the other 50%. That way players can make up their own mind about where they want to visit;

---

Block Prestige; 5,000,000
Likes; 800

‘Oh, that looks like a build worth visiting’

---

Block Prestige; 500
Likes; 8,000

‘That’s either some famous YouTuber setting up his plot, something funny, or someone who ‘bought’ their votes.’

---

Block Prestige; 10,000,000
Likes; 0

‘That’s definitely a stamped out template, or just a bunch of high prestige blocks stacked on-top of each other.’

[Spoygg]

Yeah, that is a good direction to follow. What I wanted to say, prestige is actually important as a value to determine what city will be the capital of the planet. So, beside those values, I’d add player activity, trades made, something in that direction. Maybe those 3 (existing block value, likes that you proposed, values I have proposed) would have better success determining what is actually candidate for planet capital

[james]

@Pseudonym84

I can potentially see some groups just opting out of the prestige system all together, and building their cities to simply look beautiful and prestigious. If I feel restricted in any way, I may be tempted to go that route myself. Let other cities wage a prestige war against one another while I simply try to create something worth visiting.

The Prestige system isn’t supposed to restrict building, but rather reward the efforts. If the system does pervert players actions then we’ve not got the right solution. I agree with @Spoygg that the value ranges are too great at the moment. The ranges should be much flatter.

@Pseudonym84

coming up with an algorithm that understands creativity, aesthetic value, beauty, and so forth

But the algorithm doesn’t attempt to do this.

The algorithm is setup to encourage some block variation, some usage of chiseling, some colour variation, etc. Just some. It’s not absolute.

The prestige system attempts to give Builds a level in the same way player Characters have a level. It’s up to a player how they level, likewise it’s up to the builder how they design their build. But the game doesn’t say one character build is better than another, likewise for similar level builds.

[Spoygg]

@james

The ranges should be much flatter.

Yeah, also natural blocks should add value too, maybe have a steeper fall off, so that player couldn’t just beacon some terrain and instantly get high prestige (if you track placed vs generated blocks, than that’s another story)

[Pseudonym84]

Thanks for replying @james;

You say some variation, but how would this be determined? By a percentage or a flat value? Either way that’s still exploitable and restricting.

For instance, if I want a build a certain way, but there isn’t enough chiseling, do I have to go around chiseling stuff in order to hit that peak value? Should I make a section under the ground where I hide chiseled blocks in order to capitalise on the most prestige?

The same goes for block and colour variation. ‘Ah, I need 200 more red blocks to get the maximum amount of prestige out of this build, I better add more red’, or ‘I’ve used too many of the same block, I should use a variation’.

Maybe it’s just the phrasing of the term prestige? Maybe what you’re after instead is variation? I don’t necessarily put those two things together. I know many great builds with few chisels, and many great builds with little block variation.

@james

The prestige system attempts to give Builds a level in the same way player Characters have a level. It’s up to a player how they level, likewise it’s up to the builder how they design their build. But the game doesn’t say one character build is better than another, likewise for similar level builds.

You say it’s up to the player, but it’s really up to you guys - the developers. You’re designing the algorithm, so players that are interested in chasing prestige are going to follow the algorithm. Then it just comes down to if or not your algorithm always produces worthwhile results - and this is where I’m skeptical.

Like I said though, it might just be semantics; you say prestige, when what you really mean is variation. I wouldn’t at all mind this, if ‘variation’ wasn’t accountable for the classification of settlements.

Maybe I’m missing something. I keep going over old posts of yours to glean a deeper understanding of the proposed system, but I keep getting the sense that it’ll either be restricting or unimportant.

[Kawwak]

Prestige for each block/prop

That’s interesting, how does that work? How much is it?

I doesnt remember the values of it, but as @Pseudonym84 said, its variation. We have a size, a variation, an exotic, a chiseled, and a build bonus. Like my museum have a lot exotic and size bonus, but variation is 1%, cause mostly all of it built by 3 different blocks (refined rock, stones, sand) and 1 prop (torch).

Prestige for each block/prop

The Prestige system isn’t supposed to restrict building, but rather reward the efforts. If the system does pervert players actions then we’ve not got the right solution. I agree with @Spoygg that the value ranges are too great at the moment. The ranges should be much flatter. But the algorithm doesn’t attempt to do this. The algorithm is setup to encourage some block variation, some usage of chiseling, some colour variation, etc. Just some. It’s not absolute. The prestige system attempts to…

Nowadays I think the main problem is prestige given by machines, especially stone furnaces, given that how much effort is needed to make them and still how much prestige they give. So its an exploitable thing now.

Prestige for each block/prop

And that’s pretty much what it comes down to for me; Neither can I. I just have strong doubts about any programmer - not just someone at Wonderstuck - coming up with an algorithm that understands creativity, aesthetic value, beauty, and so forth. If they manage to capture that in Boundless, I won’t just be astonished, I’ll be questioning why they haven’t sold the algorithm onto Google for a fortune. At least until super machine AI rule the planet, we have to rely on actual people to decide wh…

Well, there could be an algorithm determining how good your build are, that would be just so complex, not even Google can afford enough computers for it.

Anyway I think the prestige system is a good idea, just need reconsidering the values (always determined by the effort to make/get that block/prop), the % bonuses, and adding some like/visitor number bonuses too. Its impossible to make a perfect system for this (yet?), there will be always min-maxers, exploiters etc, but fortunately (as cheaters and trolls) most of them dont play too long, so the system could be designed for normal players, whose want to build useful (roads) and/or pretty (statues) things.

As I already wrote, prestige given by machines should be minimal, or their value should drop significantly with each machine from the same kind, and natural blocks should give prestige too. Maybe the solution is: if you broke a natural block, it will be a different block after that. Like when you mine out an iron seam, you get an iron ore, not an iron seam. For example, you dig out a sand block, you will get that sand block, and you can place it, but after you dig it out, in the code, from the computer side, its a different block! It looks the same, works the same, but from the code side, it is detected as a different (non-natural) block. It would prevent players to get prestige from plotting big chunks from the world, but still give prestige for those, whose want to build with natural (looking) blocks. It will reward the effort too, cause you gather that natural block, and place it somewhere else!

[james]

@Pseudonym84

You say some variation, but how would this be determined? By a percentage or a flat value? Either way that’s still exploitable and restricting.

For example, an scoring algorithm could give you:

• -20% multiplier if 0% of blocks throughout the beacon are variations (slopped, steps, slabs, steps), ie. a penalty.
• -10% if 4% of blocks are variations.
• 0% if 8% of blocks are variations.
• +10% if 12% of blocks are variations.
• +20% if 16% or more blocks are variations.

(The values in the above example are just as an example.)

The scoring algorithm would be penalising and rewarding some variation, but no additional value is gained if a beacon only contains block variations.

@Pseudonym84

For instance, if I want a build a certain way, but there isn’t enough chiseling, do I have to go around chiseling stuff in order to hit that peak value? Should I make a section under the ground where I hide chiseled blocks in order to capitalise on the most prestige?

This is a good question.

1. Can we balance the algorithm so that it’s asking for a minimum fair amount?

2. Hiding them underground or in a “prestige” room would be a valid work around.

Ignore aesthetics (because this isn’t attempting to evaluate aesthetics) surely we would want to reward builds that do contain some block variation?

@Pseudonym84

The same goes for block and colour variation. ‘Ah, I need 200 more red blocks to get the maximum amount of prestige out of this build, I better add more red’, or ‘I’ve used too many of the same block, I should use a variation’.

Again the algorithm could be configured as:

• -20% multiplier if 0% of blocks are from another world.
• -10% if 4% of blocks are from another world.
• 0% if 8%.
• +10% if 12%.
• +20% if 16% or more.

This is simply rewarding you to use blocks from another world. It says nothing about which colours, or in which blocks. It also doesn’t penalise you for using too many of a single colour or from a single world.

[quote=“Pseudonym84, post:16, topic:8534”]
Maybe it’s just the phrasing of the term prestige? Maybe what you’re after instead is variation? I don’t necessarily put those two things together.[/quote]

We used the term Prestige, because the reward for a high score is for your build to receive a title leading up to the Capital. The result is prestige.

The aim is to encourage and reward players using everything the game and engine has to offer. Q: “Why should I chisel?”, A: “1. because it’s fun and you can make cool looking stuff, and 2. the game rewards it.”

@Pseudonym84

I know many great builds with few chisels, and many great builds with little block variation.

Great - show us some builds that we think are incorrectly scored and we will iterate the scoring algorithm. (It’s a new feature and still a work-in-progress!! I think it’s a pretty cool feature - we just need to get it right.)

@Pseudonym84

You say it’s up to the player, but it’s really up to you guys - the developers. You’re designing the algorithm, so players that are interested in chasing prestige are going to follow the algorithm. Then it just comes down to if or not your algorithm always produces worthwhile results - and this is where I’m skeptical.

It’s up to the player - because there are many ways to get a high score. Many. We need to make sure the algorithm doesn’t pervert the creative process. I think we can achieve this.

@Kawwak

Nowadays I think the main problem is prestige given by machines, especially stone furnaces, given that how much effort is needed to make them and still how much prestige they give. So its an exploitable thing now.

Absolutely - and these values need to be fixed.

[Pseudonym84]

Bleeergh @james, look at all the running around you’re making me do!

I did some running around in Elop Portas first, and one of the best builds there, aside from @Jeffrotheswell’s temple, is @Scratchnwiff’s dragon turtle; Jade, which most people will agree on. It’s unique, well crafted, and a lot of work went into it. It took @Scratchnwiff many redesigns to get the final result, which I hope most people can appreciate?

Total Prestige Value; 29,497

That’s a good benchmark. A mastercrafted statue that - even with the blocks - would be incredibly hard to emulate. I might also add that most of the prestige from this build comes from the gleam underlighting and interior lighting. Take those away and the build is still fantastic, but worth next to nothing.

Next I took a quick run inside Jade into the Cuttlecombs, which is one of mine and @Spoygg’s builds. I just want to say right off the bat that this is the single biggest and most arduous build I’ve worked on to date. It took longer to gather for, to excavate, and to build than all my other projects combined.

To be fair, the Cuttlecombs are broken up into multiple beacons. I think 3 or 4? But they’re all around the same value;

Total Prestige Value; 23,326

Next I went over to the bathhouse I made;

Total Prestige Value; 73,850

I’m sheepish about judging my own builds, but the bathhouse has had positive feedback. Is it twice as prestigious as @Scratchnwiff’s dragon though? I don’t think so. Is it more than three times as prestigious as the Cuttlecombs? I sure as hell hope not. I’d be dissuaded from ever building something on that scale again if that were the case.

I ran over to Therka to get the values on @Naxie’s garden (one of my favourite builds in Boundless);

Total Prestige Value; 148,562

I’m glad to see this has a rather high value, because I checked back on a regular basis as this was being built, and @Naxie put a lot of time and effort into this place. Sadly I know the reason the prestige is so high, not because of the time and effort that went into it, or the creativity of the creator, but simply because there’s lots of gleam.

Case and point;

This is @SWProzee1’s gleam tower. He doesn’t mind me trashing his build, and already knows I dislike it, but like it or not it’s incredibly simple. I could gather the materials and make one of these in a day, and it’s worth;

764,629

To put that into context, that’s more than twice as ‘prestigious’ as all those other builds combined (275,235)

If I were to play the prestige game starting from today, using the current system, I’d just stack refined gleam (which is actually easier to get a load of than regular gleam)

In fact on day one of the new update I did some prestige tests with @Spoygg and @Dzchan94. I made a single plot just to see what I could do with it;

Single plot. Took me less than 5 minutes; 24,231 prestige (more than the two month Cuttlecombs myself and @Spoygg worked on)

Here’s my beacon list for some more data I hope is useful;

You’ve no doubt seen most of those builds. They’ve been featured in @DanBeforeTime, @Scratchnwiff and @Steggs101 videos.

[Initiols]

This…Helps…So much!

Thanks for giving this list

[SWProzee1]

Like I said before, why not remove the prestige system completely ?

1 thing I must make very clear, I made my tower because I wanted it like that, not because I was trying to get the most prestige. I don’t really care about the prestige thing and people know that.
Without that prestige system my tower would have been there all the same.

People may like builds and people may dislike builds, that will always be the case.

[Lawrey]

I agree that the current prestige system is giving a lot of exploit opportunities but I don’t want it removed not only because the devs already devoted resources for that feature but also because it do serves its purpose and solves problems. It allows notable buildings to be rewarded/recognized plus the mayor stuffs.

I also cannot think of any solution for this but to give in to @Pseudonym84’s idea of player-driven prestige system. However, this is exploitable too since popular players with lots of followers can just spam likes. This is where the current prestige system comes in. They compliment each other. If however, the devs made a solution for this problem without player input, then hands down these are not your average devs!

Edit:
If I’m not mistaken, current prestige system is tied to the mayoral position of the settlement right? If it is, then I guess it should not be the case. Let the easily-exploitable-hard-to-balance prestige system give lesser impact (I guess builders will not like this) different perks like you’ll get percentage of tax based on your prestige since you are the reason people are going into that settlement. As for the mayoral, let it be decided by players with beacons there since they are the ones directly affected by the mayor’s decision. Similar to how we do it in real life.

[Pseudonym84]

@Lawrey

these are not your average devs!

I think we can all already agree on that. It’s rare you get the opportunity to shape a game the way the Boundless community is, and it’s only thanks to this rare breed of developers that listen to player input, care about what their players want, and actively get involved in the discussion. I’m perpetually tipping my hat to them.

@Lawrey

I also cannot think of any solution for this but to give in to @Pseudonym84’s idea of player-driven prestige system. However, this is exploitable too since popular players with lots of followers can just spam likes.

This is indeed one downside, though no system is without flaws, and if properly married with the current proposed system it should stop one template from becoming the be all and end all.

@SWProzee1

Like I said before, why not remove the prestige system completely ?

I think for one, like @Lawrey mentioned, the system has clearly already had a lot of work put into it, so I’m not for scrapping it entirely. Nor am I for keeping faulty systems simply for that reason, but I don’t think it’s beyond saving. I think it’s actually a great idea, but it’s far from where it needs to be - if it is to remain the deciding factor of settlement naming.

I assume most players who are part of a settlement want to see their settlement grow and become a town, city - and eventually; great city. If an algorithm is to stay in play, it will unfortunately become a game of stamping out optimal templates in order to one-up neighbouring cities when vying to become the planet’s capital.

@SWProzee1

Without that prestige system my tower would have been there all the same

We know. You built it before the update, so you’re off the hook! Not that I’d berate anyone for chasing prestige. It’s not something I’m personally doing, but I can understand why some people would want to. It’ll only yield undesirable results at the moment due to the way the algorithm works.

@SWProzee1

People may like builds and people may dislike builds, that will always be the case.

This is precisely why I feel subjectivity should play a role in the prestige of a build or city.

[endymion]

I think the Prestige system will be Boundless’ epic fail. First of all I think there are 3 additional problems caused by the prestige system:

Open space

1. sometimes a build becomes outright beautiful and gorgeous because of that which was not built: ie. open space, air if you will; this is conflicting the idea that prestige only comes from that which is. Not building something can only be calculated mathematically when compared to that which is. Meaning you will end up finding a ratio which averages all builds’ open space. Implemented into the system this will force players to keep a % of open space into account. The result? You will average out all builds being of equal ‘value’ in terms of block to air ratio.

The biggest problem
2) you (as a dev) can not possibly value a blocktype or texture the same as I do as a player. Meaning that whatever list you come up with, the result will always cause me to choose a blocktype I may not like. You can only take whatever we as a group of people collectively feel should be the value. Yet then the result of anything that is being averaged, will also be ‘average’. All outcomes in the current prestige system have so far been demotivating me to continue spending time with it.

Dead Giants
3) Even if both two problems above this have been ‘fixed’ or solved. A build can currently theoretically have a high prestige rating without anyone - but the builder(s) - ever having visited the place. How can the planet as a whole acknowledge through a Prestige system that a build is prestigious without it’s inhabitants knowing it is there? As an example: “how come nobody ever visited my build, yet I’m ranked 2nd on the planet?”

Alternative algo
The current algo should be replaced by one that uses a different set of variables to calculate Prestige altogether. It should to my opnion at least be based off of:

• How many people are active (logins/logouts) in the area based on a normalized number using (for instance) the last 7 days?
  (the idea here is that prestigious buildings, like in the real world, increase value of the land, making people ‘want’ to visit or ‘settle’ near it.)

• How many people actually engage or perform actions within the beacon? Think of beacon enter/exit, trading, chatting, walking, running, grappling. Any actions performed in or around the beacon can be credited to the beacon in a way.
  (activity is what drives the game, so like in real life, prestigious builds generate activity in or around it.)

• How many people have placed x number of blocks?
  (more people working on the same build requires an idea, communication, a sense of direction, leadership. Add a %-multiplier to this variable)

• Which blocktypes have been used in the beacon?
  (current system)

Without this, I am sure Prestige will be something I will begin to eventually hate, ignore or hack.

[SWProzee1]

@endymion

Without this, I am sure Prestige will be something I will begin to eventually hate, ignore or hack.

Don’t hate it, not worth hating it.
Just ignore then, that is what I do.
HACK ??? NO NO NO, stop that BAD endymion !!!

And please DEVS, don’t automatically make the player who has the most prestige point the Mayor.

A Mayor should be chosen by the players.

Just my 2 cents.

[james]

The absolute value of each beacon isn’t interesting because they’re all different sizes, rather the ratio of prestige per beacon plot. Bigger beacons are likely to have more prestige because they have more real estate to score. So the examples you’ve given aren’t fair comparisons. We would need to normalise their points per plot - and then look at the different builds scores.

I’m genuinely interested to know what these are for the builds you’ve listed. I would also like some feedback on improving the system we’ve implemented. I’m not ready to dump it in the bin yet.

On the example of the @SWProzee1’s gleam tower (for me) this should be losing some points because it lacks variation. I would need to look more closely at it’s accumulated scoring to see where it’s over-scoring.

@Pseudonym84

In fact on day one of the new update I did some prestige tests with @Spoygg and @Dzchan94. I made a single plot just to see what I could do with it;

I think this is an interesting case.

Firstly there should be many many ways to get a maximum score for a single plot.

Secondly the game should also attempt to evaluate variation across the entire beacon. So if the player stamps out the same template from one plot across the entire beacon I would argue it then deserves a penalty.

@SWProzee1

Like I said before, why not remove the prestige system completely ?

Because some players lack a driver when playing a sandbox game. They ask themselves why should they bother building something big or complex? They just build boxes out of mud. Job done. Where as others set themselves a creative target and go after it. (See all the amazing builds in the game!)

So the Prestige is an attempt to encourage players to value their builds and keep working on them. The Prestige score is a driver, rather than the creativity that drives others.

@endymion

Dead Giants
3) Even if both two problems above this have been ‘fixed’ or solved. A build can currently theoretically have a high prestige rating without anyone - but the builder(s) - ever having visited the place. How can the planet as a whole acknowledge through a Prestige system that a build is prestigious without it’s inhabitants knowing it is there? As an example: “how come nobody ever visited my build, yet I’m ranked 2nd on the planet?”

Players will know about the builds because the Settlements with the highest Prestige show up as Locations on remote planets (and on maps in the future).