Q&A: Crafting

[Saint-X]

@Thorbjorn42gbf

But most of the early game armor in Guildwars 2 looked amazing?

nope ^^ early armor looks real bad.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Well that won’t really be a problem becasue the pretty armor doesn’t reall have any stats

if they have no stats for what i need it them

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Skins are and have always been useless? That is kinda the point of them now it just turns into a constant payment Instead of a pay once thing, meaning something you will keep up if you have the economy for it.

you destroy the economy economy even if you hate no demand, if an item is not used there is no demand.
how you will keep up economy if no one is using the items because they will save it ?
you can use the same argument for and against it, depending on the view. everything has its advantages and disadvantages.

you cant only say if a item broken and you cant repair it, that this promote the economy.

the disadvantage is that people save often their weapons/armor/etc. and that we need to grinding all the time to make a new weapon. a casual player has as example not the time to build every few days a new weapon & armor.

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@KuroKuma

I would say they did the exact same thing. Bad design and bad hardware

correct

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@olliepurkiss

A: Almost everything that is crafted has durability, and they cannot be repaired

@Vastar

I think Dying Light had a cool concept for repairing.Each weapon could be repaired 3 times and only after using all 3 “charges” the weapon was really “broken”. A handy craftsmen had a x% chance to not consume one “repair charge” when repairing something, which effectively stretched the durability of a weapon a bit.Something similar would be neat in B< imo.

this idea is nice, and has the effect that people get encouraged to level their profession

[KuroKuma]

@Saint_X

if they have no stats for what i need it them

This is also something I wondered. As far as I understand it, you could walk around naked except for the stat rings and still be as good as someone with a full armor.
Which means the priority to get armor is for most people very low.

@Saint_X

a casual player has as example not the time to build every few days a new weapon & armor.

I think this is not what they want. They want to have people specializing in weapon and armor crafting so there’s a supply of these things. Then the casual player can just buy what they need to replace instead of having to make it themselves.

[Vastar]

I´m just afraid that that this will render cosmetic wearables completely useless.
Weapons->need (a lot) materials -> get you a benefit
Wearables-> need materials-> no benefit

So who would bother wasting his/her precious materials for cosmetic stuff instead of keeping a stock of good weapons?

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I´m with @Saint_X here as I also think that complete destruction of equipment would encourage players to save their equipment which could rather cripple the economy than fueling it.
I´m sticking to it: Please make the base weapon indestructible and only let the attached mods wear out since I´m already now annoyed by the thought of constantly carrying around 2-3 different melee + ranged weapons as back up (just like in Minecraft).

@olliepurkiss
Could you tell us what have you´ve planned for the typical lifespan of a wearable/weapon? Would be quite interesting to know whether we are talking about hours, days or weeks.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Saint_X

nope ^^ early armor looks real bad.

?

Yup totally horrible…

@Saint_X

if they have no stats for what i need it them

Pretyfying your stuff, non stat armor is probably going to hold longer than the rings and such.

@Saint_X

if an item is not used there is no demand.

But the item breaking reates the demand? If an item never broke there would be demand at first htat would quickly dwindle into nothing as no players would need a new weapon or armor.

@Saint_X

how you will keep up economy if no one is using the items because they will save it ?

By making so that the items you get from using the item has a higher value than the item itself, fighting a Titan for example would probably be impossible with no armor and gear, meaning that people would use it for that, getting materials by hunting wild animals would be close to impossible without the right weapons so you would use it for that. Do you stop in mincraft somethimes and think “maybe I should not waste my expensive diamond pickaxe on gathering stone”? most people don’t because the staggering amount of 1562 stone is often worth the time it takes to collect 3 diamonds anyway.

People will use their items because it gives a possetive economic outcome.

@Saint_X

you cant only say if a item broken and you cant repair it, that this promote the economy.

Well apaarently I can and back it up with arguments even

@Saint_X

the disadvantage is that people save often their weapons/armor/etc. and that we need to grinding all the time to make a new weapon. a casual player has as example not the time to build every few days a new weapon & armor.

Now we have been given no timeframe of the amount of time it would take to make an armor or a weapons.

We haven’t even been given a timefram of the amount of time it would take it to break, it could take a full week.

Furthermore the casual and hardcore player would need to use the same percentage of time reparing their stuff, as the hardcore players would destroy it faster.

[KuroKuma]

@Thorbjorn42gbf

fighting a Titan for example would probably be impossible with no armor and gear

At the moment you only need gear aka rings for the stats. Armor would be useless in a fight with anything.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

Yeah that was what I meant, it is hard to remeber using hte correct terms

[Havok40k]

I think that a lot of the details we are speculating on are yet to be revealed, and I think things will work out better than we may think based on this limited information. A lot of concerns being raised here can be addressed well enough with simple fine tuning of durability values relative to the value of the crafting components. This is a game centered around gathering and trading, after all. I don’t think materials will be so hard to come by that people just stop consuming armor or weapons.

[Saint-X]

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Pretyfying your stuff, non stat armor is probably going to hold longer than the rings and such.

still the same question, for what i need a armor with no stats. they hold longer ? i need no armor who has only higher durability

@Thorbjorn42gbf

But the item breaking reates the demand? If an item never broke there would be demand at first htat would quickly dwindle into nothing as no players would need a new weapon or armor.

• new player needs new weaopons/armor
• new characters need new weapons/armor
• trying something new(instead range gameplay try melee as examnple), need new weapons/armor
• you need new & better weapons

in guild wars i have 3 or 4 diffrent weapons still because other stats, there are many reasons why player needs new weapons not only because durability

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Do you stop in mincraft somethimes and think “maybe I should not waste my expensive diamond pickaxe on gathering stone”?

i never play minecraft, but i play guild wars. and yes i stopped mining often because thisy because i had not so much money over.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Well apaarently I can and back it up with arguments even

which argument

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Now we have been given no timeframe of the amount of time it would take to make an armor or a weapons.

We haven’t even been given a timefram of the amount of time it would take it to break, it could take a full week.

thats true, here we need more information.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Furthermore the casual and hardcore player would need to use the same percentage of time reparing their stuff, as the hardcore players would destroy it faster.

i love hardcore gaming, but i hate it if i must grinding 5-6 day`s a week that i can play 1 day still because the durability. i love grinding some days but not i it more time as the rest of the game.

@KuroKuma

At the moment you only need gear aka rings for the stats. Armor would be useless in a fight with anything.

correct, but if we need only the rings why we should build than a armor, some people will no repair to promote the economy. but if we do not need armor brings exactly the contrary, we prevent the economy it instead of promoting

@Havok40k

I think that a lot of the details we are speculating on are yet to be revealed, and I think things will work out better than we may think based on this limited information

thats correct, the information we had are limited

@Havok40k

This is a game centered around gathering and trading, after all. I don’t think materials will be so hard to come by that people just stop consuming armor or weapons.

i think/hope that not all is easy to get, if all easy we had a game for only casual player like guild wars 2, but we need a game for hardcore and casual player. i like the hardcore raid mode in wow. we need a inducement for the hardcore gamer, and these are normally rare drops, and i think it is bad if the rare drop is broken after 1 week because the durability

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Saint_X

still the same question, for what i need a armor with no stats. they hold longer ? i need no armor who has only higher durability

The armor gives the players who are interested in looking good the possibilty to look good, if you are not relaly focused on that using rings will be enough, did you even read the acociated dev log?

@Saint_X

new player needs new weaopons/armor
new characters need new weapons/armor
trying something new(instead range gameplay try melee as examnple), need new weapons/armor
you need new & better weapons

in guild wars i have 3 or 4 diffrent weapons still because other stats, there are many reasons why player needs new weapons not only because durability

And when you have one of each weapon type what then? There is nothing more to buy, in Guild wars as well as any other MMORPG you constantly get new wepons and armor because the ones you have become useless it is basically the saem thing.

@Saint_X

which argument

Dude…

@Saint_X

i love hardcore gaming, but i hate it if i must grinding 5-6 day`s a week that i can play 1 day still because the durability. i love grinding some days but not i it more time as the rest of the game.

Which is why I said that it can be balanced a bit lter in the same bloody comment.

@Saint_X

but if we do not need armor brings exactly the contrary, we prevent the economy it instead of promoting

It is an estethic item, something you make/gather because you like how it looks, basicalyl the same as collecting and buing dyes in GW2

[Vastar]

@Saint_X

new player needs new weaopons/armor
new characters need new weapons/armor
trying something new(instead range gameplay try melee as examnple), need new weapons/armor
you need new & better weapons

in guild wars i have 3 or 4 diffrent weapons

Sorry but i gotta say that this doesn´t relate to B<.
Most of the gear in Guild Wars is either a boss drop or sold by a vendor, crafting&trading is negligible (ascended stuff is account bound anyway). This is the exact opposite of what B< is going to be)

@Saint_X

i love hardcore gaming, but i hate it if i must grinding

That´s also one of my biggest concerns. That B< degenerates into a giant grindfest just to be able to have a decent equipment at all times.

@KuroKuma

Armor would be useless in a fight with anything.

Already looking forward to the hilarious sight of dozens of naked players raiding a titan

[KuroKuma]

You should really start to read everything and then comment on something.
The way you do it at the moment looks like you really just focus on the text in the quote even if the thing you have to say about that particular part is explained a line or two further down the same post.

Or you say something to an answer which was already about the thing you meant you had to say and you make the conversation go in a circle.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Vastar

That´s also one of my biggest concerns. That B< degenerates into a giant grindfest just to be able to have a decent equipment at all times.

I think that would be a problem if it happened but I am quite sure that is not what they are going for at all, so I am not really worried about it ^.^

[KuroKuma]

Also everything grind related can be “ungrinded” with balancing stuff.

[Vastar]

I imagine that it´s going to be quite hard to find a balance between making weapons feel valuable while also keeping the amount of grinding down. Especially since keeping the required amount of materials low could result in inflation of materials.

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Another big question regarding durability is what´s going to drain durability.
Will everything drain durability or will only dying drain durability (death penalty)?

Personally I´d favor if only dying would drain durability. This way you would have at least some influence on it by playing carefully.

[Stretchious]

@Vastar

I imagine that it´s going to be quite hard to find a balance between making weapons feel valuable while also keeping the amount of grinding down.

I think weapons, like rings, actually have stats … it’s just other wearables that won’t have any.

Likewise, I’m now wondering if it will just be items with stats that will have durability. To me it makes no sense to have non-stat wearables break, as they’re purely cosmetic. If they break, people wont bother making them in future.

@olliepurkiss

Almost everything that is crafted has durability, and they cannot be repaired.

The keyword here being Almost everything.

Certainly if they ever wanted to create real-money purchasable wearables (not saying that they will), it would make sense to not let wearables wear out.

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@Vastar

Another big question regarding durability is what´s going to drain durability.Will everything drain durability or will only dying drain durability (death penalty)?

Personally I´d favor if only dying would drain durability. This way you would have at least some influence on it by playing carefully.

Honestly, I think I would actually prefer the opposite - it feels more real to have things wear out through actual use. I know comparatively we don’t die and come back in real life, so there’s nothing to base the durability penalty on, but the death in game should be penalty enough, as you would spawn back at wherever your home was and would need to get back to where you were. If dropping any items on death is going to be in the final game, that would be a big penalty imo

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@olliepurkiss

Items can’t be combined as such, but they can be enhanced using the Forge. Taking a base item, and then choosing ingredients to forge with it produces extra buffs and effects on that item. There is a random element, and progression plays a part, sometimes there are conditions or negative effects to go along with the positive. This is also the way to make brews and bombs with various effects.

On a different note, I’m really liking the sound of this part - It sounds like there will be lots to experiment with, all the way through progression!

[Vastar]

@Stretchious

I think weapons, like rings, actually have stats … it’s just other wearables that won’t have any.

I think there might be a misconception present.
With the quoted paragraph I wanted to say that it´s going to hard to accomplish the “Damn I finally finished that awesome weapon” feeling while also preventing B< from turning into a grinding game.

@Stretchious

it feels more real to have things wear out through actual use

I don´t think that high realism is a goal of this game.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Vastar

With the quoted paragraph I wanted to say that it´s going to hard to accomplish the “Damn I finally finished that awesome weapon” feeling while also preventing B< from turning into a grinding game.

Making the weapons last roughly 10 times longer than they take to make would do that? (Not putting in machine porcessing time)

[Heurazio]

I’m late to this party here … sorry if i bring up old things

@Vastar

I think it would be way better if only the mods that are attached to a weapon/wearable would break from time to time orbeing able to ‘recycle’ broken stuff to get some mats or even the attached mods back.(Refinery?)

I like this idea. maybe some parts of a weapon have an other durability than others and the “unbroken” ones could be reused. in other question i’m interested on is, if i upgrade a weapon (put some other item on/in it) will it lower or raise the over-all durability ? eg. sword (100 durability) + fire-ore (90 durability) is the outcome a fire-sword (95 durability) or a sword with fire damage (100 durability) or a burning sword (90 durability) ?

@Zouls

Eh. i cant judge before i get more info.

completely agree with you here. a lot of this discussion is pure speculation.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

But most of the early game armor in Guildwars 2 looked amazing?

when did i said this ? never … most of all gw2 armors look like trash. only some T3 culture armors and the ascended + infused fractal back-pack looks fine.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Well that won’t really be a problem becasue the pretty armor doesn’t reall have any stats Menaing that people can easily worry about stats and apparence at the same time.

As @Vastar said [quote=“Vastar, post:30, topic:4087”]
Already looking forward to the hilarious sight of dozens of naked players raiding a titan
[/quote]
and i’m sure this will most likely be normality of wearables break and have no effect at all.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Skins are and have always been useless? That is kinda the point of them now it just turns into a constant payment Instead of a pay once thing, meaning something you will keep up if you have the economy for it.

it does not matter at all if i have the economy if i don’t care and use my resources for other stuff. your time and your resources are goods that can be spend much better than by making an armor … go out and seed new crops, mine a tunnel and gather resources and so on. on the long sights it’s a multiplicand and you harm your progression if you make armor so this will be extremely late “end-game-content” if you reached everything else or if you are board like hell i think. if you craft an armor in prior phases of the game you have a drawback against others because you spend / waste resources and time on an item that has no effect.

@olliepurkiss: an other question is “how do we ‘store’ progression at all” ? We can’t store progression with items because they’ll break. Is the progression store the beacon size or the buildings + machinery’s we create ?

@Thorbjorn42gbf

I would say make them break

i accapt it. in this case i’d support vanity skins if they break too.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Anyway if the vanity armor parts actually break it should be much slower than the rest because else you will probably get tired of remaking it all the time.

but i won’t accept that. if you take the lazy way for a vanity skin it should break as fast as all other skins. some invest time and others invest money ($) but the result of the investment should be the same.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Kill monsters
Get gold and mats
Get better(aka new gear) gear
Get rid of old gear
Move to harder location

i see a problem with the system of breaking items in this case (i’m not against breaking items, but it’s bothering me in this situation). if everything breaks and if you are in really hard locations / worlds where you can’t longer keep up what happens to you ? your armor breaks, you run out of resources and if you have bad luck you can’t return to lighter areas because even the step out of your door kills you. i had plenty of situations (in the current sandbox game) where i had my home-spot on an awkward position and i died as i was building … i can’t even reach the ground or my items without dying … this took a lot of time to make it work so that i reached the ground save and without leaving a large puddle of blood.

@KuroKuma

This is also something I wondered. As far as I understand it, you could walk around naked except for the stat rings and still be as good as someone with a full armor.Which means the priority to get armor is for most people very low.

that’s how i understood it too.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

But the item breaking reates the demand? If an item never broke there would be demand at first htat would quickly dwindle into nothing as no players would need a new weapon or armor.

you are right, that’s why i like the idea at all but i see problems at some points like i mentioned before.

@Vastar

That´s also one of my biggest concerns. That B< degenerates into a giant grindfest just to be able to have a decent equipment at all times.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

I think that would be a problem if it happened but I am quite sure that is not what they are going for at all, so I am not really worried about it ^.^

i’m sure this would be a game-breaker for most of the players. i hope they’ll find a “balance”.

@Vastar

Another big question regarding durability is what´s going to drain durability.Will everything drain durability or will only dying drain durability (death penalty)?
Personally I´d favor if only dying would drain durability. This way you would have at least some influence on it by playing carefully.

maybe a death could reduce durability “faster” than normal use (eg. instant -10%) but i don’t like to see my teammates “run-away” in boss fights only because they scare to lose their items.

[Thorbjorn42gbf]

@Heurazio

but i won’t accept that. if you take the lazy way for a vanity skin it should break as fast as all other skins. some invest time and others invest money ($) but the result of the investment should be the same.

Sorry that didn’t come of clear, the comment was about all armor that does not provide stats not just payshop types

@Heurazio

i see a problem with your RPG game loop in this case

That is a good point though that problem is more with the system of stuff breaking than the loop itself. ^.^

[Heurazio]

@Thorbjorn42gbf

Sorry that didn’t come of clear, the comment was about all armor that does not provide stats not just payshop types

Oh okay, so you mean “the stats break but the skin remain” ? That’s ok if the skins have a higher lifetime than the stats.

@Thorbjorn42gbf

That is a good point though that problem is more with the system of stuff breaking than the loop itself. ^.^

i’ll correct the wrong wording.