Skill Trees v2


#21

Another good point I forgot to mention, after two years of gameplay, heck maybe even less. Most regular players would get a point when they can transcend from one specialization to the next, to the next, and to the next; or from being a generalist into specialize in some things however you please. Really ambiguous subject, that relies heavily on the “balancing” aspect of the game, a task that’s never perfect as proved in so many games.

I haven’t played that many MMO’s, but I don’t recall any which lets you do everything the best way possible, many even lock you into specific classes from the start.


#22

And on the building topic

Also,

The fact that there’s a settlement, doesn’t impede the solo player from reaching capital, it would be harder, as you need to gather it all, but it’s viable from what it seems


#23

That’s my main point, they dont. MMO players thrive when they suppliment their class’s weakness with another class’ strength. If you introduced a class that did everything with the same efficiency as the others, then why be anything else? Generalist classes typically either operate with less efficiency, or have to select a single specialized route to focus at the cost abysmal values in their other abilities. WoW’s paladin is an excellent example here- you don’t see healadins attempt to dps, and you don’t see prot-pally try to raid-heal, and you don’t see ret-pallys try to main-tank, but a paladin can technicaly do all of these things.


#24

Maybe a passive-like “end skill” that levels along with the other perks in the corresponding tree.
E.g. if you get 3/5 perks in a tree you get a “final skill” whose effect is scaled down adequately (maybe not linear).


I’m sorry to break it to you, but Boundless just might not be a game for you then.
Just as @Havok40k said, if you get to skill everything all players would eventually run around with an unified set of skills and player interaction would stagnate. The exact opposite of what they try to archive with the skill trees.

But if the idea of player interaction really deters you that much:
Just go for the fighter/explorer route. Then you just have to visit those “ugly cities” for occasional resupply/selling trips :wink:


#25

This system goes further than most to allow single players I would say. We positively encourage generalists, which whilst not being as good at each area as a specialist, can at least engage in all the areas of the game. Most RPGs force you to take a certain path and then shape a character around that, we don’t do that.

Even where are going to push you to specialise (if you want to forge the very best items for example), you can always have another character versed in those skills and swap between them. That’s a stalwart of online games and I think it works well.

Overall it is a key pillar of our game to encourage collaborative play, but not require it, and we are making every effort to enable individuals to be able to build their own mega-fortress and have fun doing as many things in the game as they want, if they’re willing to put in the time and effort.

When you get your hands on the system I’d be keen to know if you still feel it doesn’t enable solo players.


#26

This deffinetly seems to solve most problems with locked skill and rerolling skills.


#27

Of course things will be possible for a single player - just use alts!

I really expect to have a minimum of 4 characters which will be specialised in different things. Same as selecting the right tools for the job from my storage lockers I’ll be selecting my alt with the right skills for the job.

In FO3 I had a variety of different characters build for stealth, or melee, or skilled at lockpicking/hacking, it increased the replayability of the game for me hugely going through with diferenty styles of play. The RPG level was much more in FO3, agonising over where to put skill points, testing builds, reloading if it didn’t work out.

Compare that to FO4 where you can max level everything on 1 character and I got to level 120 and got bored through being so OP and able to literally do everything with ease.


#28

This. :thumbsup:


#29

warframe is my main game.

in it you can own every single class (warframe) and master them, as well as every weapon. you can also earn rewards by mastering each of six npc based syndicates.

i dont understand what is so hard to comprehend for some of the people here on the forums… why they think it needs to be all or none and if all may as well be none.

ill put it plainly,

with enough time and effort, id like to be able to EVENTUALLY master everything.

forcing us into generalists and specialists seems quite unnecessary.

if the road is long and winding, then you will still have players generalizing, and specializing, and then ‘end game’ level players will have the chance to master everything given enough time/effort.


#30

nah, if thats the general sentiment of the devs that ill need alt accounts… im pretty much done with the game. thanks for your time and effort its been nice but thats not my style.

gl to all of you.


#31

alt characters not accounts. (Want to make sure this is clear - as there is no suggestion that multiple purchases would be required.)

Alt characters is also the way to play and experience the full spectrum of playable races.


#32

accounts… characters… not into it.

warframe spoiled me and theres no turning back.

single account every warframe almost every weapon, all pets and companions.

i appreciate the option but its not my thing, thanks and gl.


#33

Wait what? You say you have 6 different classes and mastered then all in Warframe - how exactly is that any different from having 6 different classes in Boundless and mastering them all as separate alt characters?

You can’t take 1 single character in Warframe and give it every skill of every other character in the game can you?

If you can’t do that then already Boundless is ahead because you could give 10? characters skill sets to 1 single toon if you generalise - yes granted you won’t be top level in each thing. Already Boundless is ahead on that fact alone for example doing a pure crafter/trader build (which can be maxed in one of them and pretty high up in the other) on the same toon.

Edit: and if another game doing something better is an excuse for abandoning a game, it’s a fair point if that’s your ONLY requirement from that game. I doubt Boundless will do farming as well as Archeages in depth system, I doubt Boundless will do animal taming as in depth as ARKs systems, I doubt Boundless will do world vs world PvP as well as GW2 - but it has/will have all those things together so I am going to enjoy playing it.


#34

Hey @T4LCOMX. Like you, I used to play a lot of Warframe and I think you are missing some points.

In Warframe, you have an account and, in it, you play using a lot of different characters (Warframes?). In these, you have a limited space to put Mods that enhance their natural capabilities (Skills?). You also have weapons and pets, but these are items you can craft,buy and trade.
The only difference of this system with Boundless is that all Warframe already have some abilities and innate characteristics (health, shield, energy).

In Boundless, you can create/trade/buy all the itens - if you have the necessary skill - Also, you’ll be able to have Alternate Characters too. the diference is that, well, Boundless is boundless :stuck_out_tongue: and you decide what class you want to be, it’s possibilities and limitations.


#35

no i think you have the wrong idea about how it is

each warframe has heath / shield / armor / run speed. but they each also have four unique abilities. the player isnt penalized for owning all of them. and none suffer for owning the others. you can only operate one warframe in a mission at a time, but you can change back and forth as much as you want at will between the gear you do own warframes included.

you can rank up all warframes to their max potential , and rank up all the various mods to change their builds, and then you can use what is called forma to add polarities to warframe’s mod slots so that you can squeeze in higher ranked mods at lower cost. you can do this with weapons and pets as well. warframes also can be farmed and crafted. you can also have multiple copies of each frame/weapon/pet just in case you want to specialize one build around one ability or stat on one version and another on a different one.

you can trade craft and buy everything in warframe just about and you dont need to be one way or the other to do it.

plus, you have focus system, abilities that are used by the ‘tenno’, the ‘operator’ of the warframes. a demented kid in your player ship, and with enough time and effort you can complete all the skill trees for each focus school if you wish. switching between the schools at will. switching between warframes and pets and weapons, at will.

being able to make different characters to have different specializations in itself trivializes the need for specializations. why force players to break it up when theyre essentially meeting the same goal at the end anyhow if they do in fact take the time to specialize them all differently.

you guys are going to have generalists, and specialists. i want to be a master.

i appreciate your view but its not quite on point and doesnt apply the way you think it does.

i have 4500+ hrs in warframe. you get 6k mastery points (account rank essentially) for pets and warframes, you get 3k from weapons. The max Mastery Rank is 30 which we cannot hit yet, we can currently only reach mastery 23. I am mastery 22 with enough xp earned on my main warframe class (nova/novaprime) to rank up enough warframes to hit mr 30 on just them (if accrued xp counted for mastery).

i think im at around 460m xp between nova and nova prime and it only takes 2.25m ( of mastery ) to hit mr 30. if accrued xp counted for mastery id be mr 45 by now off of just my mains xp, not including all the other gear i own. and yet… im still mr 22… only one rank under the possible limit atm. (essentially the math is, 450m / 900k = the number of frames that xp would rank up. 2.25m / 6k = the amount of warframes youd need (using only warframes) to hit mr 30)

and im lazy.

some players have put multiple forma (which deranks your item and can only be used at max rank) on every single item in game. one player has 5 forma on every item you can own.

point is,

forcing players to swap characters just to enjoy the full spectrum of the abilities and skills presented to literally every player seems arbitrary and redundant. owning warframes and ranking them up, along with ranking up the mods to make the builds, is the equivalent of spending the skill points on a skill tree. no need for a separate character, you just swap the frame your character is using at the moment but all of it is still yours at will at any time once you achieve it.

the only true limit is the warframe slots and weapons slots which players start with only a few… and they have to be purchased in game. … however, the premium currency was made tradable (wise decision) few years back so even players who dont spend real money can still obtain them.


#36

as explained above, your character is a kid in your ship. the warframes are tools that each have four abilities. the tenno (kid) also has focus system. you can max them all out and own them all and use them interchangeably at will.

the difference here, is that the abilities are unique but can still be owned by owning the warframes. here, the skills are generic and should be available to everyone (are available, as of the current concept, with limits).

also, you can as stated above, max out all the focus skill trees and use them when needed as needed.

the equivalent in boundless would be to allow players to max out all skill trees, but only have select ones active at a time, i.e. active skill sets. so, youd swap your skill set to explorer builder warrior to go out and settle new areas or farming resources, then swap back to crafter machinist engineer or w/e when at home working on tools and or your home.

if it were like this, i would not be losing interest in an otherwise fun and interesting and beautiful looking game.

and while i appreciate that some games do some things better than others, this is 2017 and imo certain games deserve to set new standards. limiting your players in the way that you can do this but if you do you cant do that! seems old fashioned and backwards.

let us do it all, as good as we can, as much as can be, if we are willing to invest the time and effort into it. and by time i dont mean crafting/wait time.

also, just to add, i never said six classes. there are five focus trees, skill trees, used by the operator. iirc there is something like almost fifty warframes (some of them are ‘prime variants’ that have the same skills but are different account rank xp and have a minor buff here or there), about 35 of which are unique.

not to mention three types of pet, kubrow (dog) with five breeds, kavat (cat) with two breeds, and charger (infested abomination) 1 breed.

and you also have i think its eight or nine base companion drones… djinn diriga carrier wyrm helios dethcube shade taxon, three of which have prime variants (again, just slightly better stats here or there and separate mastery)

every warframe can use any weapon, and sentinels (companion drones) can change weapons too, each coming with their own but able to use the others (with the exception of helios’s weapon only usable by helios but he can use any other weapon instead)

the freedom to customize is so amazing in warframe and they arent limiting you based on your choices


#37

Wow so much written and yet you’re just writing all and the same.

What you’re basically saying is that in warframe you have different warframes (characters, really) to accomodate in the best way possible to the task at hand. How is that any different than having alternate characters for each task? In both boundless and warframe there’s no given moment when you’re the best at everything, you’re just best as something, if you’ve even mastered to begin with.

You’re not ever gonna have every single unique skill in a warframe, and not will you do in boundless. And both offer ways to try them all, just that they’re different, in warframe you have different suits, in boundless you have different characters. Which is the same.

In any case, boundless offers the best system, as alternate characters means different coins, inventories and plots, and plus if you wanted to have them all in a single character, you can just transfer them.

I don’t know if you have any idea about games or how they’re done. But every game has a logic behind it. And no warframe is not as open as you think. Each game has it’s own set of features that make them what they are, I can’t go around warframe building a giant dragon, and I can’t go around boundless slashing and doing acrobatics with a sword.

I don’t know what you’re looking at, but boundless is setting new standards already.


#38

Seems to me that you can do this with alts at the very least. You are making it sound like you want one character to be able to max out every branch and use them all of the time. That does not work in mmorpg for the reasons already stated above. Also as best as I can tell, warframe is not a mmorpg-survival, but a multilayer shooter. You’re comparing apples to oranges here; these games aren’t similar enough to be compared thusly.


#39

He’s got a point tho…
Leveling alts or leveling a second tree on you main are basically the same thing. Just that the latter adds the inconvenience of switching between chars.


#40

I still can’t see what the difference is between respeccing your build to fit the task and logging off your warrior/explorer and logging in your crafter/engineer? There will also be different races to try out as well. Havoks hit the nail on the head, this is an MMO with RPG elements, not CoD/FPS.

I still can’t see what the difference is between going to your ship to change warframes and logging in and out to change characters is.

Inconvenience?? If it’s anything like other MMOs or RPG games that have changeable skill sets like GW2 and Archeage or Borderlands then respeccing would take around 3-5 minutes compared with the 15 seconds it takes to log off and on. I had 3 warriors and 3 guardians in GW2 as it was faster to log in and out than it was to completely swap gear/armour/food - plus you didn’t have the bag space to carry round 3 sets of armour and weapons and a range of buff foods.

Archeage is the closest I’ve seen to the ability to max up everything combat skill wise and then have 3 active at a time, changing those 3 for a big cost when you need - BUT you also needed to change your entire armour and weapon sets, change your food buffs/drinks if you wanted to experience a different class ie melee to ranged. Again bag space for armour/weapons for multiple styles was a huge problem.

In Archeage Crafting & “Vocations” was totally different, you could only have 2 out of the 21 maxed so you needed alts to cover this little lot: Alchemy, Construction, Cooking, Handicrafts,Husbandry, Farming, Fishing, Logging, Gathering, Machining, Metalwork, Printing, Mining, Masonry, Tailoring, Leatherwork, Weaponry, Carpentry, Larceny, Commerce, Composition

Sorry, I can’t see why that’s so bad you are quitting the game.