A long winded post on the opinions of a 1000-hour player

General
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Ok, let me start by saying this is going to be a long post, with a lot of thoughts and ideas covered, and there probably won’t be a TL;DR version.

Also, this is my opinions, and I don’t expect, or require, anyone to agree with them. They are just, hopefully, a topic for discussion where we can come to some sort of agreement wherein everyone is able to play, and enjoy the game as they see or feel that it should be (Yes, I know, it’s the holy grail of game development balance). I guess I’m just hoping that these differences are not mutually exclusive, and we can find a way for them to co-exist.

I’ve seen so many people argue that “this should be this way, because I want it to be this way”, and at the same time saying that others wanting something different “should not be allowed to have that, because I dont agree with it.”
There has got to be a middle ground here, where we can all get what we want from the game, without preventing others from enjoying it in their way.

As I’ve just now crossed the 1000 hour threshhold of play time in Boundless, I guess I finally feel like I can express these opinions and ideas freely, and see what conversations and ideas come from it. …We’ll see how that goes, I suppose :wink:

So, let’s begin.

  1. Alts.
    Alts have been covered many, many times. I am totally in favor of alts because I know that some people love to create alter-egos, new personalities. RP them, with backstories and all. This should absolutely be allowed. Some people love creating ‘characters’, with backstory and specific abilities. And also, what about families that share an account across different people? Is there a good reason to disallow this? And if you think that character should be limited to certain abilities because of that backstory, then you are already free to do so by not choosing those other skills.

  2. The ability to learn all skills.
    This has been covered many times as well. No matter the implementation, this will happen. Either people will create alts to cover the skills their ‘main’ character cannot cover, or some will subscribe to another account to allow for this. So many MMOs have proven this to be true I can’t imagine anyone not seeing this happening if skills are restricted to the extent that a single character cannot learn them all. Every MMO I have ever played, I have seen this happen in. I have done this myself in many MMOs. It will happen, regardless. I can right now cover every skill in the game with the three alts available to me. And, as @James has said, in: What would make you build/play more
    there will be some possibility of this, as there is really no difference between alts having all the skills or one character having all the skills, when switching between alts is so simple.

  3. The economy.
    I know a lot of people seem to be worried about the economy if characters can ‘do all things’. First, remember, that this is already possible with alts.
    Second, remember there is already an inherent limiter on this that is TIME. Nobody can do all these things (mining, gathering plants, hunting animals, building, etc…) at the same time. Regardless if someone has the skills to be able to do all these things, they will have to prioritize which things are important to them at that time, and unless they have unlimited time to spend playing Boundless, they will never come close to a group of people working together who are specialized in their roles, and working in sync. Why is this a problem for anyone? If you want to work in a group, and be far more efficient, you can. Right now. And that probably won’t ever change. Maybe you prefer grouping, but maybe others prefer ‘going it alone’. Why does one perspective have to disallow the other? Especially when as a group you will still far outdo the ‘loner’?

  4. An addition to the economy. I agree that we need more ‘fluff’ or ‘cosmetic’ purchases available to us. This would add coin sinks to people who were willing to use them or valued them.
    I don’t think they should be ‘required’ purchases, though. Some people will impulse buy, or like something to the extent that they want to buy it, and some would rather save for something bigger or more important to them personally.
    Again, I agree, optional coin sinks are great. Let’s add far more of those. Whether its appearance related to character, tools, mounts, whatever. Go for it. (As long as it doesnt effect gameplay statistically)

  5. Grind.
    This is something I feel we need to be careful of. From what I have seen, many players come to Boundless because of its building, exploring, and freedom aspects. (It is called “Boundless”, after all.) If there is too much ‘grind’… they will leave. I can’t begin to tell you how many tiny settlements I have had to clean up around my area, where its just a beacon and a couple of machines. If the grind or the lack of a clear understanding of a path forward, if people feel it’s too ‘grindy’, they seem to leave rather quickly. I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating. Player churn at those rates is NOT good for the game. We want people to come, explore, see the sights, and be in wonder and awe, and want to stay and make their mark, their place in these worlds. But if we cannot come up with a smooth transition from beginning with wood/stone tools, to developing something they can be proud of, … they just wont stay.

  6. The ‘grind’ to level 50.
    I’ve got to admit, this seems rather silly to me. In my opinion, the game doesn’t really start until you are at least close to 50 and have all the abilities to do the things you want to do in the game. If the goal was to hit 50, then people would hit 50, get bored, and leave. And those people would be missing the entire experience of Boundless. It’s at or near 50 that I had the time, skills, abilities, and resources to truly begin creating the things I wanted to, hoped to, and dreamed of, creating in this world. If people quit once hitting 50, then, IMHO, they arent really ‘getting’ the Boundless idea to begin with. At 50 I still help other players (esp. NoobHunts, (@amandapan) :wink: ), still continue to build, still continue to harvest/mine the resources I need for those things. At 50 is when the game really begins to shine, for me. You can take part in any of the group or community activities, or go off on your own, and do your own thing. It’s your choice.
    Why make hitting 50, where you can truly begin to be a part of, and contribute to these worlds and projects, in the way you choose to, such a ‘grind’? To me that only serves to discourage new players before they have even begun to truly understand the possibilities available to them.

  7. Crafting difficulty/progression.
    This one’s a bit more difficult, and I admit could use more input. Right now, I feel as if the recipes should be available to anyone, as the limiting factor there is whether or not they can gather the required resources to craft it. And that’s not necessarily easy for a new player, remember. Yes, there should be rewards for people who specialize or put extra ‘effort’ into specific areas. But, limiting players from building what they ‘see’ as possible, or ‘envision’, is counter-productive, I think. Yes, Boundless has combat, and gathering, and other things. But at its heart its is 1) A building game, and 2) a community game. Neither of those things sync well with having to ‘grind’ to be a part of them.

  8. Portals being too ‘easy’ or ‘inexpensive’ to maintain.
    This, I think, is a direct result of us only currently having 12 planets. Once the number of planets (and blinksec distances to those new planets) are increased, there is no way a single player can maintain a full network. It will take a group effort to manage and maintain a galaxy/universe-wide network. Judging this now based on how many portals individuals have is not going to be indicitive of the situation once 50+ planets are involved, probably some with even larger blinksec distances. This is a problem I think willl take care of itself when the universe expands. Personally, I feel current (recently increased) costs will cover this nicely, though it should of course be re-examined at that time. Plus, IMHO, the exploration of the portals (‘Stargates?’), is incredibly fulfilling and awe-inspiring. It’s a huge part of the ‘draw’ of the game itself, and as I have previously stated, a (in my opinion) totally valid alternate form of exploration, that does not detract from wondering around in the wild on a planet.

Granted, this is only covering the current ‘hot topics’ of the game. Yeah, I’ve got a lot of other ideas and suggestions, (I’m sure we all do), and if anyone is interested in hearing them, I may share them at some point. I just think these are the things we need to discuss and try to arrive at some kind of equitable, acceptable-to-all agreement on, no matter what our differences in playstyle, preferences or priorities may be.

( MMO Gamer Psychology / Player Personality Test )

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I read it all - pretty much agree with most of what you think about current game features and where it can go wrong etc.

I will only speak about alts here though at the moment.
I think best way to deal with it is to allow players to chose how many characters they want to have (between 1 and 3). Number of skill points earned through progression can then be scaled according to player’s choice (so if its 1500 now for 3 alts then choosing 2 could mean 2000 skill points per alt and playing one character could mean 4000 skills at level 50: numbers purely arbitrary and not thought over here, please refrain from discussing them).

For those who think there is no much difference between having one character and a few alts (including @james), I have to say I see a big difference. I played both styles (pre-alt times and after alts were introduced) and it is a very much different experience.

With one character I might be able to cover all areas but that only happens after I reach higher levels. Before that I must decide which role I want to do first: mining, hunting or crafting? And then build up and add other skills to what I started with.
Playing a few alts mean I can tackle a few areas at the same time (well, not literally, as I need to divide my time between my alts). Specialized alt can get efficient in its role faster and whenever I need something from game (and do it myself), I can just switch between alts and do it early in my game rather than wait weeks before I can cover that with just one character.

I think its crucial to give players a choice there, rather than limit them to either one character or multi-alt style of play.

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What would you think about swtchable skill-specs. Perhaps taking ~10sec (current log-out time) of ‘meditation’ to switch sets? And of course, damage of any kind would interrupt this, etc…

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Yeah, sounds ok to me. Would replace alts in the choice between one character and multiple alts/specs. (So there could be a choice between no spec generalist and spec-switching character).

The tiny difference between specs and alts is with alts you might be in different locations while changing between specs leaves you physically in the same body and place. And from role-playing point of view, specs don’t give you that. You are the same character with different skills.

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I have to admit here, what I’m hoping to see us achieve/agree on (all of us) is a way for the people that want to play alts as RP characters with different personalities, not just skills, and the people that use the alts to supplement the skills they cannot afford on their main, both get what they want out of it.

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Well, using alts for consistent role-playing will always be up to people - some will really be different “people” when playing their alts, others will always be themselves no matter what skin they wear. Kinda hard to make people to role-play really.

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Exactly that. But I don’t want to take away the option of players who do want to RP different characters, either. Regardless if that is how I would use them in a skill-limited game or not…

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Totally agree with everything you said, I’m just over 900 hours and every point you made rings true as far as my experience has been so far. I have 1 level 50+ character that does all the exploring/mining/gathering/hunting type stuff and a level 39 character that just stays at home running the workshop. I’m thinking about making a 3rd to specialise in building but either way it would add up to the same as just having them rolled into one.

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This is a concept called “Opportunity Cost”.

Also, I read all of what you wrote, and your points are valid, in my opinion. However, there are a few keynotes that I think you should consider:

  • The biggest reason that I find the skill system to be a failure is that it doesn’t have unique skills. Barring one character from learning them all, you should still have unique abilities and skills intrinsic to your character, otherwise alts are a moot point.

  • There is little to no reason to continue to progress passed the point of “endgame” which is currently only assigned by a player’s internal desires. So, if there’s no Titans, giant PVE enemies, dungeons or quests, there is no external stimulus and the player is put in a situation where the owness of this burden falls fully on their shoulders.

  • Even with the opportunity cost listed before, where you described the method in which a player has limited time and has to choose between roles, there is little to stop “hardcore” players from owning the economy and controlling planets. This chokes out independent business and small boutiques, by the inherent limitation of unique items and interesting products.

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If you’re suggesting things like Talents, Traits, Complications, Disadvantages, Feats, Perks, Weaknesses, etc… as in many P&P RPGs, I would love to see systems like this added to Boundless. Thrown in cosmetic (not just clothing) but effects to actions (alternate animations, and or particle effects), and then were getting somewhere unique. :+1:

If you mean something else, then I think I’m missing what you mean :wink:

True.
But doesn’t it always, really? Even with those other options, ‘endgame’ is whatever you make of it. I never got into the massive endgame raids in most of the MMOs I have played that had them, simply because I didnt really enjoy them. (With the possible exception of the Hami raid in CoH :wink: )

I would absolutely like to see more choices added. Randomly spawning dungeons, titans, time-limited planets or asteroid events, farming, etc… Some of these things are already planned, some are player hopes and dreams.

But ultimately, ‘endgame’ and ‘the end of the game’ (as in i’m done now), are both things we all decide for ourselves in any game.

There will always be little to stop hardcore players from outdoing the more casual players. If you devote more time and energy and join together, in anything you do, you’re going to outdo those that don’t. I don’t know that there is any way to prevent that. :man_shrugging:

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That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. Having a character class that contributes to a team based event or combat scenario in an unique way is what I’m craving. Having the skills “Intimidate” and “Shadow” are remediations of what could be used in combat, and the chisel mastery is something that is a white wash over a builder class. I think that there should be cooldowns, or something similar, to be used by particular characters in situational endeavors.

Unfortunately, this is true, but it’s also a misnomer. Just because you’re done with the game, personally, doesn’t mean that the game is done with you. I will give you an example from my actual gaming experiences. When I was playing WoW during the days of Classic, there was a pact made between our friends where the first person to have all the pieces of Judgement would be the winner of WoW. However, that’s one class. That’s one type of gear. So, lo-and-behold, there was a crowned Winner of WoW, (or WoWoW) but the game still had staying power. Every week we would go in to Ragnaros and try to get another piece of gear. That applies to the other point.

This is true in a sense, but this game is lacking a fundamental rule that has been put into motion since games were a thing. RNG. RNG is something that we all know and love (and also hate). Leveling the playing field between the most dedicated player and the rando who happens to get lucky on the first shot. Getting the mount / item / powerup that is long since sought after. Where WoW did it wrong was that they couldn’t control the influx of item sellers and had to institute a strict BoP (Bind on Pickup) system to prevent that loot from becoming more than a vanity item. There were still BoE (Bind on Equips) with would allow for the sale of these items within every patch. Those BoEs were what could allow a player who would normally be casual to receive a life giving stimulus and windfall. Unique shop items will allow players to specialize in finding rare ingredients and tailoring a buying experience for their patrons. Items that would take ingenuity to make, or a recipe plan, would allow people to have unique items to sell. It would cause a much needed boost to the economy if someone was selling Captian Rumsy’s Rum to lower level players or some such nonsense. Savory Deviate Delight… all that. Just for funsies.

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Oh dear (insert diety of you choice here), PLEASE no RNG ■■■■ in Boundless. If I put in the time and the effort, I should get the reward. Nothing will make me walk away quicker than to spend a week trying to get something, and then not get it because I rolled a 71 when I needed a 72. I do not have that kind of time to waste, or that kind of patience. :wink: :man_shrugging:

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Well, RNG is not the demon that you are making it out to be. It’s an equalizer. It allows the most experienced and dedicated player to have the same chance at getting something that a junior player does. The more experienced player will put more tickets into that raffle, but someone could win it just by being there at the right time. RNG implies that people could all be performing the same action at the same time, and get different results. It creates an environment where you can have a common enemy and allows for brevity among the unsuccessful.

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I agree with you 1000000000000000000000000%!
Players should be all-powerful beyond the battle.
Alt maybe very meaningless. Just waste time to recreate a same character.

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NOTE: This is MY opinion
In response to your #2, You haven’t played Albion. This skill system is similar in that they are trying to make it so you can’t get them all even with all your alts combined. This system is cool however they need to make sure that a few component’s are perfect for that. A. Weapon balance MUST be perfect as you force players to be locked to a specific class OR an option to switch with a reset (Which they have! Well done devs!). B. The player requirements does not exceed that of 2 additional people outside of yourself. If it takes more then 3 people or 9 characters, people WILL quit. This is just basic psychology as most people have TWO TO FOUR BEST friends, and a total of 8.6 close friends not including relatives. (Which ironically would be replaced by your family if they were your best friend at a 1 to 1 ratio). (Currently Boundless succeeds in this as well) Albion fell into this trap because it failed both A AND B. Currently this game succeeds in both. (BEAUTIFUL JOB DEVS! Keep up the good work here!)

#1, 2, 4, 5, 7,8 are perfect. Nicely done sir!

I’d argue #3 the economy will be BETTER with more planet’s if they have a limitation to control market flow. So like have a non player portal to 2 planets but 10 planets can connect to 1 of those two planets only so that people are funneled into sections of 10, so if you have 80 planet’s you can get 8 markets at each planet to planet gate that connects the next block chain of 10 planets, and people will build around that location causing cities to be built in those generalized locations creating super markets. This game has a TON of potential here. You can also make it so people can only obtain a specific item on each set of 10 planets so you have reason to go to another market to encourage buying. Kind of like gems are for solo planets, this item would be for all 10 planets in a block and can be traded to another chain of 10 planets.
#6 Is also think somewhat wrong because A. I achieved it all mid 20’s on a couple characters using one as a specified crafter miner and the other as a hunter woodcutter. I also would say that you haven’t unlocked it all because it’s not all out yet. But that’s just me being a smart (*&. lol Other than that good job!

Good read and thoughts, and thanks for your opinion good sir!

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I’m not sure that I understand what you’re angling at here. I’ve read your post several times, but I can’t make sense of your points. What do you mean by weapon balance? So far there are only two weapon types in the game, and neither really have many gates to prevent players from taking both. But, the real point I can’t understand is the last one, about the economy. The economy is the way it is because of lack of variable goods. That’s the impression I got, but I’m not sure if the demand for different planetary / biome specific resources would really change the problem in the long run. Trade, and interstellar trade for that matter, would centralize all of the variable resources homogenizing the market. Globalization is a problem when it comes to destroying cultures and markets as well.

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For something like this I would say add a spark cost to switching skill sets. Add some form of altar or device to the game that is craftable with basic machinery that give the player the option to switch skill sets for a base cost plus an additional cost per skill point actually being changed. Like Base cost = 50spark x current level AND additional cost = 10spark x skill points being reassigned.

Just an idea.

Some reasoning to this, we have alts so switching between skill sets on a single alt when you could have specialized another alt in these skill sets alternatively should have some form of balancing since it effectively mitigates the effort you would have had to put in to training your other alt to do the same things.

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You got both my points from the way you expressed that. Due to being able to obtain both weapons and a lack of versatility is passes that concern automatically. The economy you nailed on the head as well as more goods from more biomes and planets can help with that as well as a limitation on travel to obtain such goods as obtaining them isn’t so much as difficult as traveling could make it.

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Ah, Okay, I think I understand now. I guess with more weapon classes, it would make for interesting situations to determine which one would be most viable.