An incoherent/disjointed rant about the economy

Trading
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After seeing so much discussion on the forum about the trade system I have finally broken, I can no longer just ignore and keep my thoughts to myself. I have done this in a new thread because I don’t want to target anyone in particular, I just want to give my thoughts on the matter and hopefully help steer some people in a better direction or maybe just cheer someone up with terrible jokes. If anything this is directed at the entire community and what better way to make friends than to tell the entire community that it’s all your fault and we could be doing things better!!! … just kidding (mostly).

DISCLAIMER - Good luck reader, my mind is a disturbing place and you may in fact walk away dumber (less intelligent) than you were before reading this. This is a wall of text, this is disjointed, this is incoherent, this is a rant and you most likely will find something you disagree with. Unfortunately you can’t say much on here that won’t get <3 from some and hate from others, well so be it. END DISCLAIMER

#1 Insane rant

click here to read something I should of kept to myself

I, personally, am against the idea of an auction house

(ducks for cover)…That’s right I said it! I’m allowed an opinion right!!! Because that is all that it is, my opinion. But lucky for you reader-who-is-now-slightly-dumber-than-you-were-at-the-start-of-this-thread because I am going to explain why I feel this way.

Essentially it would be one giant step away from Boundless being a “creative sandbox” by removing all the creative elements of being a “trader”. Currently there are countless possible ways to be a successful trader in this game and they allow the clever,the bold, the creative and the imaginative ones to be rewarded for finding unique ways to do so. A universal auction house would encourage/reward only one way to trade, and stifle what drives many (not all) people to create and build in this game.

Those that are currently wealthy and have more money than they can ever spend (no offense intended at those people, you have played this game well) would then have an in game tool that allowed them to control the market entirely, they could buy anything and everything they wanted without ever having to lift a figurative finger. People will no longer reap the rewards of their work and imagination and excellent service to the customer but instead will be rewarded for their ability to buy. The ruthless will thrive, and the generous/helpful will not.

#2 Stupid idea
I have been mulling over ways to create an auction house in game for sometime… The idea being that I have request baskets accepting location tokens which I buy at 0c each, I have a shop stand selling these location tokens for 100c each. I have a basket/stand for every single item in the game… or actually maybe just for every category of item in the game… no that’s too big a job so maybe just every category of shop in the game… or… you get the idea. Too much work, too many holes, too many flaws, too many ways to troll the system. Maybe we could get the tools to make this work, one day.

#3 what, he’s still talking?
Personally I approved of the trade network, it allowed me to discover new player builds and shops and also to bring players to mine, it gave me the knowledge to buy and sell even long after it stopped working. To me it was essentially a way of “advertising” and I believe this is what is needed: a better, in game way to spread the word/advertise and an easier way for players to find buyers/sellers. There is some potential for players to do this currently but there definitely could be better tools given to us to achieve this.

Large cities and networks seem too wholly focused on selling/claiming “prime” real estate and maximizing footfall, perhaps they could consider selling advertising: billboard spaces, noticeboards, etc. And of course there are tools that we could be given to do this/manage this better.

#5 wtf is he thinking asking questions of the big guilds?
Players seem to gather materials with no place to sell to, with no idea if it is even in demand, simply because it is easy to get lots of it… this makes little practical sense to me. Why mine/chop/gather something if there is no use/demand for it? I don’t gather/collect anything I don’t need and expect it to sell itself (I am a hoarder though), but if I hear of or if I stumble upon an opportunity to sell something at a good price then I jump on the opportunity and go gather that in demand item or rush home to get some I have hoarded for a rainy day.

Tier 5/6 network owners… why do I not see shop stands and request baskets both buying and selling diamonds in McKrib or Emeralds in Shedu Teir right in the middle of yours and every other hub on that planet? You have the power and the influence to control the market price of these materials and this would in fact be a way to get more people to use your network over another. Have the best buy price and the best sell price and everyone will use your network! If players find every request basket is no longer buying on a planet then that would indicate the gem is probably not worth mining and it would in fact be cheaper to buy from one of the full shop stands. If they are mining to make money then they would simply go to another planet where the gem is in demand.

#37 was that a suggestion or the recipe for a top-secret in game recipe?
I feel there is an entire profession waiting to be exploited by someone still, the “broker”, someone with vast knowledge of the economy, of supply and demand and the location of many many baskets and shop stands throughout the planets. Someone who can not only enable transactions but also advise players:

One person says they cannot find a buyer, another says they cannot find a seller, and both are saying it is too hard to find one another… then another someone comes along and says something silly like

You’re both idiots! You just need to know where to look!

… do you get where I’m going with this you three? Or do I need to spell it out for you…? Of course I do…

The third person is right, but is not helping. The first 2 are expecting to get what they want without having to work for it… perhaps if all 3 were a little more open minded and cooperative they could work together… and hey voila! Buyer gets item, seller gets money and the broker gets a nice little 100c finders fee (@Tamelcoe, lol) just for knowing them.

#1 you thought this was an ordered list of headings and then I lost track at #5 right?

Anyway rant over and the voices in my head have stopped for now! Sorry, just some thoughts I’ve been stewing on for a while! And thankyou for reading.

#K but K isn’t even a number? Is this guy drunk?

See, I told you this thread would reduce your IQ.

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Believe or not, I read it all - and one thing I agree on is that any kind of in-game auction house system will most likely be a step backward (for reasons you pointed out quite well).

I had days when I decided to buy an item I didn’t have time/patience to craft and ended up spending over an hour moving from portal to portal, between cities, shopping malls and planets, all to no avail. Frustrating at times. But all the exploring mixed with use of forums and discord led me to creating a list of most reliable shops that buy/sell whatever I usually look to buy or sell. I still look for new ones every now and again, but most of the time I stick to well known places of trade. So, the initial time spent and a bit of frustration did lead, eventually, to an easier trading experience - so, time well spent (and I met some people, made friends and learnt this and that from other players).

So, despite some time-consuming and almost reward-less (lol) experience at first, I still would rather not have a global trading system in Boundless, as it would diminish exploring, visiting, socializing experience that trading provides now (be it a seller, a buyer or both - we need to find a way to attract attention, a way to meet others and either use stands or baskets or direct trade).

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Sorry if you find life a bit harder tomorrow with your new and unimproved, lower than 10 minutes ago IQ… (i.e. thankyou for reading all the way to the bottom!)

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no worries, I haven’t had much to begin with

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This is arguably false because allowing players to find price information more readily increases competition as well as player transactions.

How is it a bad thing that the money is making its way into the hands of the sellers? By increasing the speed of player transactions, you reduce the amount of time that the coin-poor and time-poor players have to wait before seeing some results for their work. Feeling threatened by major buyers buying up anything they want? Raise your price = gg. The market will adjust.

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I’m not convinced that truly controlling prices is possible with what we currently have to work with. Almost every resource is made easily available through farms and group hunts. There isn’t much in the way of scarcity, especially for essentials. The most expensive items are generally out of the way but are available to anyone who has the skills, equipment, and time to spend.

I think there should be easier ways to find shop stands/baskets, but then how do you know if it’s a reasonable place anyway? I still wouldn’t care to run around for hours just to find something I could have been collecting all that time or just posted here or maybe asked a guild mate.

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I would have to say a major part of the problem here is trying to put value on things. It comes down to what they can be used for. Take sayyyyyyy topaz for instance what is it really worth? What can you use it for? It’s not overly useful for tools unless that’s all you can find but it makes a decent deco block if you like the color. Then you factor in that passed compressed you can change it to sapphire to decorate with. I personally like the sapphire better soooo topaz can fit that bill. But the people that are buying it have little incentive if they dont like blue or yellow deco blocks so at that point what is it really WORTH to them. At that point they are just going by competition for the VALUE of the gem.

It also seems to me that most of the people with money come from a time when prices were much higher, however, that will happen in an economy with literally endless resources.

The only resource that is truly limited atm are the exo resources but even then the economy has no clue what to do with them. I have seen everything from a couple hundred to a couple thousand for one raw??? These are confusing times, couple that with the fact that forging these things properly takes some doing, I have yet to get one I would be comfortable selling, it makes me wonder the worth past decoration.

Okay, consider my rant now over. My apologies for my incoherence.

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Player trading needs to be fixed if we intend to retain players. Auction house isn’t the fix for it though, that’s for sure. Something that doesn’t involve a player having to spend 30 minutes to 2 hours to make a transaction, seems like where the happy medium will lie.

Don’t see broker being a thing long term just because of how that profession is viewed in other sandbox games, ultimately when the brokers pull the plug they pull the biggest heists the games have ever seen. I used to enjoy reading those EvE Novels.

The only ask, those of us are advocating for one thing really, is just the ability to see what is for sale on a planet and quantity. Let us track those shop stands. Don’t show the price so people cant pricewar. If they want to pricewar then they have to spend time running to every shop to price compare and adjust. Just make finding the items for buying/selling able to be seen easier.

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Last thing I swear.

One thing I have thought of is guild shops to cut down the number of independent shops and get more things in one place.

Hate to throw it out there but more like a walmart.

Hear me out, there are guilds now right?
Why not have request baskets just for your guild?
Have one place where you can take all the things sell them all in one place.
The people that harvest or make the things needed could just sell to the guild to make their money and people buying would be able to find anything they need in one place. It would take some time to get the request part right and the margin for the guild would be lower but you trade volume and convenience.

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Arguably, yes. But what I was trying to get across, very badly in this particular sentence maybe, was that currently trade in this game isn’t as simple as being the cheapest seller and the best priced buyer. The ones that have been successful are the ones who have worked with the systems we have in place now, the ones who have used their imaginations, the ones who have created something, the ones who have taken risks, the ones with the great ideas that have now been copied and improved upon.

I’m not talking about malls, it was common sense that they show up in game. I’m talking about people who for example have created hunt platforms, organised and led hunts and then put request baskets on the platforms buying creature drops. Yes, at a low price, but you don’t have to sell to them, they are a fast sale option and if you want better prices you can look for a better price or put them on a shop stand yourself at a higher price. Anyway this is just an example, i’m sure there are many more.

It’s not, at all. But what could happen, again just in my eyes, is the big buyers ultimately can buy cheap and sell high and the prices keep inflating, like in a real economy the truly disgustingly wealthy can absolutely control the price of anything they choose by buying it all and selling it for whatever they wish, but thankfully their are laws in life to protect people from this, not in game however, the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.

When I started out I offered very generous prices in my baskets and I feel I still do, any player I met that didn’t know how to make money I showed them my shop and my baskets and I helped them get started. I didn’t and still don’t make a lot of profit as a result, but I get more pleasure out of helping players and stimulating the local economy than I do out of making more money than I can spend. i am on what was at the time a dead Aus planet, now as a result I get more than myself and maybe 1 other person on the planet at absolutely any time of the day, it stimulated economy and a small community. I feel these opportunities/options would be taken away from me with an auction system. No way could I ever price that high again, and new players wouldn’t be seeking generous people they would simply sell on the auction for the highest price on offer.

Agreed, not completely, and that is a good thing.

I agree, that’s why I have offered up some suggestions, such as advertising. And stated we need more tools to get the word out. How do you know it’s reasonable? By doing your homework, by playing smart? But please, not by a searchable in game list… we may as well be selling to an NPC.

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It’s actually the second best tool for T6 mining, based on tool stats alone, Amethyst is the best. (AGAIN, IN MY OPINION ONLY). If you think I just said something mad crazy, because diamond is the only tool worth having, then I suggest like I said to someone earlier, homework.

But if you truly feel it’s worthless except as a building block…then why continue mining it??? Because it’s the easiest and fastest gem to mine right. But if you can’t sell it then why mine it? Mine emeralds and sell them instead.

Thankyou for reading and posting.

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I actually like this idea, love it. I wish I could lock a request basket just to the people I want using it.

Again, awesome idea.

You know what cuts down independent shops… failing independent shops. These shops will tip over and fall if they aren’t successful. Be successful, price right, treat your customers well, advertise… blah blah blah. I know, again we need more tools to all of this, I agree.

But hey, there’s also some very successful independent shops running out in the world. What we need is ways to let everyone know where they are (if they want to be found). Personally, I don’t advertise anymore, I simply cannot forge any more than I currently do and I am happy with the customer base I have… if things slow down, I will advertise and I will do the legwork to get new customers.

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For months this is all anyone has honestly asked for, just in various ways.

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Not fixed… improved, and again I keep saying, the player base is not helping the situation by refusing to be involved. We want more players… so help. But otherwise totally agree.

I never played EvE, so I can’t say I know what you’re saying, but yeah I totally get the point you make. Again, I’m just throwing out some alternatives to the auction and as I keep saying, the systems we have could work, but yes are flawed… for now.

You may as well just make an auction house where you have to run to the stand yourself. Or are you meaning more like the resource page when you look at the information of a planet and it simply gives you a %age of each item… if so, neat idea, I like it, hadn’t thought of that.

EDIT: sorry so many questions, so little time, lol. I read your last paragraph completely… and yes this is heading in a better direction maybe.

But also why not simply advertising billboards, noticeboards that we can place our shop information on at the planetary hubs?? This keeps it in the hands of the players and feels less like spreadsheets and more like player created.

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So my take on this is you want to make it better for the shop owner because then players have a way to know what sellers have and how much. This is great for the new shops and smaller shops not in malls. But if there is no price information then as a buyer I am still the one that has to spend the time looking around to make sure I am paying a fair price. So why even bother? If I am going to spend an hour running around planets to check prices then maybe that is time better spent just crafting it myself. At least that way I get xp.

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Unreasonable fears. The market is saturated with many of the same items and also done with a somewhat small community. People don’t need to be rich, players just need coin for warps. If the “rich” think they can control a sandbox market where nearly anything is farmable with regen, they are deluded

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I dont run a shop. In my mining value post recently, I even state that’s why I don’t run a shop. I hate having the onus on me personally to keep items stocked. I like the ability to just choose a random day and dump a lot of stock. Sometimes that means I have to hunt and search for baskets with a) a price I want to sell at and b) and the volume in which I am selling. I am willing to run all over the map if I KNOW a spot TENDS to buy at price (a) or volume (b).

I get where your complaint is at regarding the price knowledge but Im not sure how we fix that without introducing the ability to drop price by .01 like in eve or any auction house game. Im useless on offering suggestions there, sorry. I’m certainly open to others takes on how to improve that particular area though.

Hey, that’s a great idea too, Im down with that, the problem is it comes down to better tools I think. How do you make it easy to see the adverts? in small hubs? outside of hubs? then you have small ones, tall ones, loud ones, flashy ones, etc etc You can imagine how the scenery would degrade quickly? But its an organic game so maybe to be expected.

But if they had the chance to set dev time aside to create new tools, what tools would we want to be given? I think this is where the the being able to track shop stands via the atlas idea came from. It seems to be a low cost high reward time use of the devs, but im just armchair hypothesizing.

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Fair enough on the unreasonable fears comment, maybe they are. But a saturated market, a small community and the fact that no one needs to buy anything because it’s all farmable… then why so much demand for easier ways to trade?

Anyway the main point I was trying to make was that the auction house system kills creativity. Creative ways to market your trade and buy/sell are just as valid and as fun to some as building a pixel art Pokemon is to someone else. If we go to far with automating things and sharing global prices/information then this becomes more of a spreadsheet game.

Again all I’m asking for is more creative ways to get our information out there, rather than price wars via spreadsheet.

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Read till the end. I have to say i also think an auction house would bring its own issues with it (i didnt clearly say it was bad ok? :P). I mean lets assume we had an auction house that sorted prices of items and their locations. Who’s the winner? The person who can drop the price the most. CoMpEtiTion youll tell me right? No xD.

Regarding brokers, i can claim i was a broker-ish back in the alpha and i had a friend or 2 ask me where to find the best deals (i myself used to by items to resell them) but i think its waaay harder to do now with the amount of planets we have.

TL;DR
I don’t fully agree with an auction house and i don’t have a better solution :smiley:

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As I say this was merely me ranting and getting some thoughts off my head and hopefully a way of getting others to think about this differently.

But now I must go and spend time playing the game I really enjoy playing rather than just talking about it, (Boundless btw).

I will read this more tomorrow. Thankyou for reading people and I appreciate the feedback.

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