Boundless was okay yesterday but today it's not?

[Feign]

Not true. We’ve said many times that Boundless can be played by solo players. What isn’t solo’able at the moment?

Have you seen the video @SWProzee1 posted about his battle with a level 5 cuttle?
If you have the best gear, it is soloable. It isn’t profitable, but it’s soloable.
Without gem gear and heavy skillpoint investment, you can’t survive on tier 3 planets. One shot, and you’re done. 25% damage to all gear. Not worth the risk. You can’t get gems unless you go to tier 3 planets. Even then, you need to know where.

Add to that, now people who are managing hubs are saying they can’t keep them fueled given the scarcity of oortstones, the solo player will also need to manage their own portal to get to the dangerous place.

To top it all off, you need to have spent so many skillpoints upping strength, vitality, weaponry, mining, power, dexterity, you need to be a high level to even get started.

I’m not everyone, I’m sure there are people who love the current version, but personally for me it’s too much ask for too little reward - I don’t have the time to invest maxing out just to do the same thing with different sprites - and currently that’s what it feels like. The change in tools isn’t pronounced enough. Each tier of tool should feel considerably stronger, to make it worth the investment. I may as well just use a stone hammer and hit blocks on Therka, for all the difference gold hammers make. Plus the amount of resources to make a gold hammer, and the skill set needed? It’s taken me 40+ hours to get to that stage, and the hammer is only marginally better than stone except for the fact it can break titanium and gems? I know people will say buy it from others, but to me, if I have to buy from others, I’m not playing solo, simple as that.

I feel I should add, I’m level 28 at the moment, just so people don’t think I’m level 1 and trying Munteen. Maybe I’m there a bit early, but similarly I’m struggling to get by on moon worlds. One spitter hit me for half my health. If you want me to invest in attributes, they need to be cheaper otherwise I’m locking myself out of crafting until I reach end-game levels just to survive.

[TechStomper]

@Feign

I feel I should add, I’m level 28 at the moment, just so people don’t think I’m level 1 and trying Munteen

Naw dude i’m level 43 and have the same pain u do…harder worlds are dumb af…yes i don’t have that much into damage but even lvl 2 monsters were hard to kill on normal planets…luckily the AI is dumb so i can just avoid them and such…for me it’s about the mining and such…u should be highly rewarded for exploring highly dangerous planets…i mean hell i’ve died countless times in vulpto cause of a slip into lava plus it’s difficult to traverse.

[james]

@Feign

Have you seen the video @SWProzee1 posted about his battle with a level 5 cuttle?

Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.

@Feign

If you have the best gear, it is soloable. It isn’t profitable, but it’s soloable.

Without gem gear and heavy skillpoint investment, you can’t survive on tier 3 planets. One shot, and you’re done. 25% damage to all gear. Not worth the risk. You can’t get gems unless you go to tier 3 planets. Even then, you need to know where.

Ok - so the balance still needs work.

@Feign

Add to that, now people who are managing hubs are saying they can’t keep them fueled given the scarcity of oortstones, the solo player will also need to manage their own portal to get to the dangerous place.

How many portals should a solo player be able to maintain and for what time investment?

@Feign

To top it all off, you need to have spent so many skillpoints upping strength, vitality, weaponry, mining, power, dexterity, you need to be a high level to even get started.

I’m not sure what the point is here? Yes - there is progression to improve your player.

@Feign

The change in tools isn’t pronounced enough. Each tier of tool should feel considerably stronger, to make it worth the investment. I may as well just use a stone hammer and hit blocks on Therka, for all the difference gold hammers make. Plus the amount of resources to make a gold hammer, and the skill set needed? It’s taken me 40+ hours to get to that stage, and the hammer is only marginally better than stone except for the fact it can break titanium and gems?

Ok - so we need to work on the balance more. This update was the first that introduced varying block toughness based on world level.

@Feign

I’m level 28 at the moment, just so people don’t think I’m level 1 and trying Munteen. Maybe I’m there a bit early, but similarly I’m struggling to get by on moon worlds. One spitter hit me for half my health. If you want me to invest in attributes, they need to be cheaper otherwise I’m locking myself out of crafting until I reach end-game levels just to survive.

Ok - so roughly speaking, at what Level do you think an average player should be able to comfortably exist on the current Moon and Ring worlds?

Or alternatively, roughly how long do you think an average player should invest before they’re comfortable existing on the current Moon and Ring worlds?

Because we can balance the game so that after 10 hours or 100 hours or N hours you call comfortably explore all world.

[TechStomper]

@james

Because we can balance the game so that after 10 hours or 100 hours or N hours you call comfortably explore all world.

I don’t think u should be able to traverse the really hard worlds in 10 hours…but i’d like to think that every 15 levels should be able to account for maybe living “comfortably” in worlds…but idk…

[Lawrey]

@james

we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.

There are obviously some balancing on creatures needed but I think what made the outbreak was that “harder planet” got released on live without the accompanying “additional reward for doing stuffs on those harder planet”. I’m talking about the additional drops for harder creature, additional ore for mining harder seam, etc (hoping that these rewards are on the pipeline at least).

I personally don’t want you guys to exert unnecessary effort by providing short term solutions or workarounds. IMHO, this release should probably be rolled back, balance Testing 172 with the “additional reward” system then pushed back to live.

I hope I didn’t sound too entitled as I tried my best not to.

[Feign]

Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.

Great, thank you. As I said in my Steam review, I rate your team as a responsive development team.

Ok - so the balance still needs work.

Which is why I’ve been posting today - not to attack but to raise my concerns.

How many portals should a solo player be able to maintain and for what time investment?

I’m from a point of ignorance here, you’d be better asking those players who manage portal hubs. From a solo point of view, I’d expect to be paying a price for 1-2 hours worth of portal, increasing exponentially from there. As for the cost, I don’t have a frame of reference, but from the difficulty of acquiring oortstones from anywhere expect tier 3 worlds, I’d say 4 or so. The more abundant oortstones are, the more the cost can vary. Again though, no frame of reference.

Ok - so we need to work on the balance more. This update was the first that introduced varying block toughness based on world level.

Great thanks for taking my feedback on board.

Ok - so roughly speaking, at what Level do you think an average player should be able to comfortably exist on the current Moon and Ring worlds?

Like most, I’d see progression in level milestones. 10, 20, 30 etc. Personally, I’d separate survivability skills from career skills so people who want to craft aren’t locked out of seeing the worlds you’ve created. Alternatively, there could be some other way of temporarily increasing your survivability. Food boosts, potions, etc. So the non-combat character can survive but temporarily and at cost, whereas the combat character is permanently able to survive.

Or alternatively, roughly how long do you think an average player should invest before they’re comfortable existing on the current Moon and Ring worlds? Because we can balance the game so that after 10 hours or 100 hours or N hours you call comfortably explore all world.

I’d say check my post above about world tiers. The game will have more longevity if there is a permanent end challenge, progression to tier 3 worlds (in my example above), I’d be looking at my play length. 40+ hours should have me comfortably managing on my own, ticking along happily average, providing the gear for those who want the harder challenges. For the more die-hard players raid planets will offer endless play lengths - particularly boss planets, here you’re talking colonising and maintaining an actively hostile world!

At the moment, I’ve unlocked a good chunk of the crafting tree and set up a shop which I’m pretty proud of. It looks nice and it’s pretty well stocked. Now I want to maintain my goods, maybe unlock some more gear trees so I can supply more items - however I need skill points to do that. I can only get those, realistically, by mining or hunting which means I need a lot more points invested in non-craft trees. This means I have to progress in an opposite direction to the one I want to - I have to become a fighter/explorer/miner all in one. This would be fine but the skill point costs go up each time I buy a skill point and the time between levels gets longer and longer. Again - this is me and I don’t want to come across as attacking the game, I’m just saying it as I experience it. I could go back to Therka and mine copper and iron to get the levels, but then I get no sense of progression and feel like I need to max out before I can really play the way I want to.

[Stretchious]

@Feign

Whilst it’s on my mind, we could do with someway to prevent mob spawning.

Your beaconed area should prevent creatures from spawning in them - if it’s not, then it’s a bug.

I don’t think there should be a way to prevent them full stop though (and torches are already used in this exact way in minecraft - the less comparison you can have there, the better).

[TechStomper]

@Stretchious

and torches are already used in this exact way in minecraft - the less comparison you can have there, the bette

Wait??? IS THAT the reason u are trying so hard to make this game as less like MC as possible?? Dude whoo cares if torches stopped Minecraft mobs from spawning…it would be cool and such

[Feign]

There was a spitter in the portal hub of @SWProzee1 when I logged on this morning.

I disagree, to each his/her own, I feel towns should be a safe space if adequate passive protection is created for the reasons I gave, different tiered planets requiring different levels of protection. It just feels wrong to me that a creature can spawn inside patrolled walls - that could be the obstacle rather than torches - walled with a certain level of material.

You need a safe space on any planet, otherwise only combat-ready people will be able to live there and then you’re forcing a skill set on people. A craftsman who wants to help out on a raid planet would have to be able to fight as well or risk being killed at any moment - then you’ve forced a multi-role player. Like I said, maybe this only works in plotted areas to stop people plopping down torches where-ever.

Also, from a immersion point of view, how does a spitter get past patrolled walls to even be in the town (assuming walls)? Cuttles could be a different matter of course as they can fly.

As for the Minecraft comparison, torches were simply an example for explaining the mechanism idea. I think you’re going to be disappointed if you hope people won’t compare Boundless to Minecraft whatever mechanics are taken. It’s not a clone in the slightest, but it’s a lie to say there are no comparisons to be drawn. Sort of how most MMOs get compared to WoW, Everquest, even Ultima Online (showing my age).

[Cookviper]

• level 1 with the best gear = 1 second
• 10 with the best gear = 3 seconds
• 20 with the best gear = 7 seconds
• 30 with the best gear = 11 seconds
• 40 with the best gear = 17 seconds
• 50 with the best gear = 30 seconds

This is going off how many Oort stones are dropped as well. A higher level mob should ALWAYS drop something better otherwise why fight it?
This is also taking into consideration the time spent searching for mobs. They’re not always a dime a dozen.
This is also going off the fact that the player does indeed have the absolute best weapon to use. A lesser weapon would increase these times.
I just wanna say that I am loving the harder mobs. It instantly gave me the feeling that there’s actually a battle system in place and made me want to call a friend over to help me defeat the mob I was fighting. It wasn’t until the final defeat and realization that I got absolutely nothing for my glorious win that made me never want to do it again. I honestly don’t care how long it takes to defeat a mob, as long as the reward is worth it. And with mobs this difficult to defeat I no longer feel that the skill “luck” is nessesary.

[Stretchious]

Beacons already do the job of preventing them from spawning … why would you need to litter an unprotected landscape with torches? They’d be taken by regen or other players.

@Feign

There was a spitter in the portal hub of @SWProzee1 when I logged on this morning.

That shouldn’t happen - it’s worth mentioning in the bug list I think

@Feign

As for the Minecraft comparison, torches were simply an example for explaining the mechanism idea. I think you’re going to be disappointed if you hope people won’t compare Boundless to Minecraft whatever mechanics are taken. It’s not a clone in the slightest, but it’s a lie to say there are no comparisons to be drawn. Sort of how most MMOs get compared to WoW, Everquest, even Ultima Online (showing my age).

I’m not saying that there won’t be comparisons, especially with the popularity and global awareness of MC. All I’m saying is that Boundless doesn’t have to copy MC in that regard to reinforce that comparison.

[lucadeltodecso]

Becsons stop creature spawning, but they can still wander into a beacon from outside unlesd it is literally walled off in every single way

[olliepurkiss]

@Stretchious

ed area should prevent creatures from spawning in them - if it’s not, then it’s a bug.

I don’t think there should be a way to prevent them full stop though (and torches are already used in this exact way in minecraft - the less comparison you can have there, the better)

As @Stretchious said they shouldn’t spawn inside a beacon, but they can spawn outside and walk in. I’d always considered that part of building a settlement or a house would be to build walls and doors to keep creatures out. Do you think that does the job?

[AzureHelios]

@Stretchious

There is apparently an issue with the drops - it’s currently not was intended (at least that is what I have been told). I agree, that higher tier worlds need to have better rewards. I believe that the difficulty is around the right level though. The reward is not quite there yet.

I’ll just say that I’m 100% certain that luck doesn’t do zip for drops yet, and then I’ll add that even if it did, the drops from these mobs would still have to be about 2-4 times higher to justify killing them.

@james

Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.

^ This is a bada** dev.

@james

How many portals should a solo player be able to maintain and for what time investment?

Probably 4-5 one-hop portals for a 40+ player with generalist spec skills (tools and levels) for about 10-15 minutes of time investment. Any more difficult than that and it starts to feel like a grind just to keep your footing.

This could be made much steeper though if some sort of “portal tax” system were set up, as others have suggested. Perhaps you can’t use someone else’s portal without (automatically, if you have them handy) donating an oort shard or something similar which would give you access to that portal for an hour? Hard to say how to balance this exactly, but I’ll bet you could balance it.

@james

Ok - so roughly speaking, at what Level do you think an average player should be able to comfortably exist on the current Moon and Ring worlds?

I don’t really have a problem with the spitters or etc even on Munteen/Nasharil hitting for 1,600 hp, or the Wildstock hitting for 3,600. What scares me is that I have two levels left to level 50, and there’s no way I’ll ever be able to afford all the atmosphere resistances that I’ll HAVE to have to survive on those worlds. If you only needed atmosphere resistance during storms and the like (while not under a roof), that I could see being very reasonable. Even if I divested all my manufacturing perks and hammer mastery, I still don’t think I’d be able to take perks for more than 1-2 different atmospheres.

Oh, and T5 Hoppers hitting for upwards of 9,900 damage. That scares me so much I invested in the whole %resistance: Impact line. I guess I’ll find out eventually if that will let me survive a single hit of them, or if I’ll still be gibbed by 20k damage or something crazy.

[Feign]

I don’t know where that spitter came from then as @SWProzee1 built his hub on the sea!

As for dropping torches anywhere - if you’re on a tough group-level planet and torches stopped spawning it’d be a bit of an exploit to prevent mob spawning so you can mine in safety without protection.

If it’s a bug and beacons already do the job, then its a moot point anyway. I just know I’ve seen mobs wandering around most larger cities but if they’re spawning and wandering in, that makes sense. Walls for raid communities sound pretty good now! Sort of an outer wall surrounding the growing houses within, some sort of gate mechanism. Good stuff.

[AzureHelios]

@AzureHelios

there’s no way I’ll ever be able to afford all the atmosphere resistances that I’ll HAVE to have to survive on those worlds.

Actually, now that I think about it, could the atmosphere resistance perks be tiered like this?

Rank 1: Protects you from taking damage from normal air of that type.

Rank 2: Protects you from taking damage from fog of that type.

Rank 3: Protects you from taking damage from windstorm of that type.

Rank 4: Protects you from taking damage from rain of that type.

Rank 5: Protects you from taking damage from a rainstorm/hurricane of that type.

That would leave room for people to just take the basic or two rank to visit worlds, and then run for cover in structures/other planets if the weather starts to change in certain ways. Otherwise you end up almost HAVING to take all five ranks of all three types… an investment of (I’d estimate) around 200-250 skill points.

It’d be a different story if the damage-per-second from atmosphere didn’t go any higher than say 20, but I doubt that will be the case given how cheap Regeneration is.

[james]

@AzureHelios

and there’s no way I’ll ever be able to afford all the atmosphere resistances that I’ll HAVE to have to survive on those worlds.

There will be buffs for these.

Resistance is for permanent resistance. Buffs will be for temporary resistance.

[AzureHelios]

That would definitely help fill out the gatherer/alchemist skills with useful things!

[Kal-El]

I agree with many of the things you and others have said. My problem with the update is I need a gem weapon to have a chance on a planet to mine for the gems I need to make the gem weapon and I will probably burn through one gem weapon fighting creatures while acquiring enough gems to make another one (assuming I do not die and loose 25% of the weapons durability). With the change in mining it becomes and endless grind and the argument that you can “buy it” at thousands of coin per weapon means I cannot play solo (which is supposed to be possible in the game) or I will run out of coin very quickly. My other large concern is that without the portals, it becomes impossible to get the resources for gem weapons and decent hammers. So if maintaining a portal requires a group then you are effectively stuck on your home planet, unless you are part of a group. I would not continue to play this game if that is how it goes live.

When I am able to play the game, I rarely run into other players. It does happen, but it is not common. So even if I wanted to play with a group, I am not finding the players to do it.

I have been playing for a few hundred hours and have reached level 34. I am just starting to get enough gems to make a weapon and made my first gold tool a few days ago. I would be concerned what with the current balance, new players are not going to stick around long enough to acquire what they need to feel successful. I was about to make a portal in order to gain the XP, but I think that seems like a waste of effort since I would probably be unable to maintain enough shards to maintain it.

What level should you need to be to be able to get the resources needed and be able to move around the planets in relative safety? Currently mining seems to be the best way to acquire XP’s, If you are locked into mining for copper, coal and iron on your home planet for too long in order to reach a level with the associated skills points to be able to go to another planet, players will not stay.

How long should it take for a new player to be rewarded with the chance and ability to go to a survive on another planet? If it is too long, they will not play.

I agree with some of the others that I will probably log in daily to gain a few XP and to keep my beacons fueled, but will wait and see if there are changes before doing much else.

[cor-karolis]

@james

Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.

Dude. Are you okay? Have you eaten? I just, uh, don’t keel over on us or anything, yeah?