Centraforging Feedback - Improvements and Suggested Changes!

Hello Everyone!

I have been going through the Centraforge feedback threads and mulling over what could be done to improve the Centraforge. I wanted to present the information with the community and hear feedback.

Before we get started:

  1. I am not looking to remake Centraforging completely. My goal is to help with player experience, balance and data collection. I think suggestions about removing items or complete changes might be a bit premature.

  2. Stick to dev’s vision of the Centraforge. That means that there will be an element of RNG. If you think the Centraforge should not have RNG, I would support you instead positioning your feedback to improving and increasing the Augment system. From posts by the Dev’s it seems the Centraforge is designed to have RNG to improve tools/weapons and the Augment system is the Non-RNG answer to improving Tools/Weapons. I think increasing the number of Augments would be very healthy for the game and am in full support!

  3. I also wanted to address the learning curve and cost of items needed to learn to use the Centraforge.

  4. Below I ignore any exploits that max out Stability/Vigour. Those are not the base design and have evolved out of a need since the system isn’t favorable. This would be like the Vigor process before, or the Gum trick now for Stability/Vigour.

  5. I wanted to remove the incentive to just keep cleaning your item and starting over. That just isn’t fun.

Ways to Improve the Centraforge:

Reduce RNG and Increase Player Agency

I have made this point on a few threads, but I think it is key. Right now the experience of the Centraforge has limited Player Agency and as a result the RNG is held up as the primary issue. I think both can be addressed.

1) Allow players to Select the Buffs they Want when they put an item in the Forge without increasing the odds of getting that buff.

WOAH! I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out. Right now in the game there aren’t easy ways to see what buffs are available in the Forge. We use Google Sheets or notes to access that information. Buff selection would allow a player to put a tool in and see the buffs, their grouping (Effect, special, ect) and choose what buffs they want for that tool.

Selecting a Buffs would also show you ‘odds’ of getting that buff numerically, but doesn’t directly increase the chance of you getting it.

This has HUGE impact to both the experience of the Forge and also the Data that it collects.

Imagine it like a window to the left of the Centraforge. You put your Hammer in, and bam it populates with what buffs it could get. You see them organized by grouping (Effect, special ect) and can select a buff from the list and put it into 1 of 3 spots for that item.

Then you start forging. You would see the odds of getting those buffs, the likely hood of it happening.

Right now, the current Forge, you can’t see that data. The Dev’s have no idea based on the number of forges what % of them succeed. How many AOE + Damage + Durability Hammers are trying to be made and fail? What do they cost to be made?

What buffs do people only keep when they get stuck with them, but don’t want initially?

All that data would be available! It would help balance the forge immeasurably because the team could see failure rates of forges…and that would allow them to break apart groupings and organize % to better balance the forge.

As players, our experience is also improved, because we can see what chances we have of getting a buff listed numerically. This would allow us to make calculated decisions with our expensive ingredients and have better insight into the process.

2) Remove Gum RNG

There is a lot of RNG elements in the Centraforge and I think that Gum RNG can just be removed. With the above suggestion, allow Gums to move % points from the non-selected groupings into the selected groupings by a flat amount.

This would drive down the RNG, allow the points you use for GUMS to increase your odds.

If we imagine it like a buff window on the left (with the above example) we would have the 3 buffs listed on the left and their groupings and a fourth spot for "other buff’ which would represent the chances of getting something else. As you used Gums it would reduce the “other buff” section and move it to the grouping for that Gum.

Even with high Gum use, this doesn’t give the item you want 100% or remove RNG. Gums only give you the Group…you still have to fight for the buff you want from it…and gums only improve 1 family…so % you are still fighting between several buffs for good items.

3) Allow Transmutes to be Used on Any Buff - not just the last one gained

This is just a small change that would really improve Transmutes. Right now, as a high end forger I use Pastes as a part of the process for getting the item I want.

Transmutes hurt way more then they should for their cost. I loose a round of possible buff acquisition AND the cost AND a round on my paste just to try and get what I want. It is often cheaper and easier to just clean the item and start again. By allowing Transmutes to change a targeted buff I can use them at the end with limited cost.

Considering Transmutes large cost to create, I think this is fair. Buff Removal would remain the same.

4) Change the Centraforge Skill

My last suggestion is based on the above suggestions and would change the Centraforge skill. Remove the ‘deck improvement’ part of it. I think that it doesn’t really help. I get the idea that a smaller deck is for early players…but let us all have the same playing board to learn the game on.

I didn’t learn chess or backgammon on a smaller board, and the number of deck slots you have change the tactics you can use.

Once that is removed from the skill, add a small % to the skill to improve the chances of getting the buff you want. This would be contingent on the first item above.

Example:
I choose “Damage” buff for my hammer. The group pulls over, but the % of receiving the Damage buff is higher then the rest of the group slightly because of this skill.

So for the effect group: Critical chance is 5%, Critical Damage is 5% and (Selected) Damage is 10% (just for ease of numbers and this example).

This would help forgers get their buffs more often without making it 100%

Thanks to anyone that read that all the way through! Happy to hear thoughts.

10 Likes

I only forge once in a blue moon and that’s just to make healing bombs, changing chisels and add light to grapples etc. I certainly can’t afford the time to get all the necessary ingredients to make anything more advanced such as EoA tools or even have the time to really try and learn the forge so all the improvements you are suggesting would certainly be a welcome change and possibly even encourage more people to give it another try.

1 Like

Forging should be harder. Would make for rarer end game items. I think the lower effectiveness on the next tier of tools in testing now is a good thing. Its just not as special if you can make the same thing every time, it needs that randomness, otherwise just add the recipies to the workbench like the rest.

2 Likes

Strange as it sounds, I agree with both Tagris and Uniek on this. Ironically base tool value and effectiveness are nearly the right knobs to achieve both. Lets say we implimented something like what Tagris suggested here. This would both improve the forge expirience and make forging a little easier. That is not bad, but i also love very complex puzzles and having a tuff forge is a source of pride for many of us. AND, this adds needed complexity to the game. To me, the range of forges could be expanded. I suspect that a wider range of base tool properties (damage, speed, energy,…) Inversely tied to their effectiveness (and very possibly rng) would solve that. So a copper tool might be nearly deterministic when forged and a rift tool might be random and difficult. However, the rift needs to have the possibility to vastly exceed anything that the copper tool might ever manage. This argument would be the same when comparing the rift to say diamond with less deterimism on the diamond and less possible superiority on the rift.

A change like this would allow people to learn in stages as they forged progressively more difficult tools and would give master forgers and customers a wider market to work in.

It would also solve the problem with cheaper forges. For instance, the cost of a well forged copper or iron tool is not really that much cheaper than a diamond tool (forged with similar buffs). Thus margins are better on diamond tools. Deterministic low end forging would solve some of that.

My 2c

2 Likes

Initially when the forge was released that’s how I thought it would work, low end gear easy and predictable to produce getting progressively harder and more RNG so there’s a clear line of progression and learning involved. This quote from James suggests that the forge should be as simple as deciding to progress to metal or forging stone which obviously would be aimed at beginners but when you look at all the requirements for even simple forging it’s clearly never going to be the case. (Wouldn’t let me quote so had to copy and paste)

jamesWonderstruck

Jul '18

schasm:

It’s a long way in, which is fine if you think your market is going to be grind-happy players but I’d suggest they’re a minority from other games I’ve been a part of.

The Forge isn’t a long way in. The Forge is designed to run perpendicular to material progression, ie.

  1. Have Stone tools.
  2. Pick between progressing to Metal or Forging Stone.
2 Likes

Very well put together and reasonable suggestions for forging there, nice one :+1:

I like the idea of having the % increase as a skill point and especially the idea of having the list of possible buffs, that would 100% increase the noob friendliness of the forge (me). As when you’re low level, you don’t really have the means to trial and error loads of ingredients to see what everything does. Although I love this way of learning (trial and error, having the community make information sources) the truth of the matter is it’ll just turn forge noobs off the idea that instead of encouraging then to play a out with it.

Awesome suggestions there, I support this post! :fist:

3 Likes

Forging is not that hard to get what you want at first I had no idea what to do but after watching Jiivita’s videos on forging and trying myself.

I found it is not that hard I can forge 3x3 tools with ease with extra damage and anything else I want. it just take a little time to understand

3 Likes