Forging Balance Changes on Testing

forge
testing
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f4f086ecf40> #<Tag:0x00007f4f086ecdd8>

#226

I had on my list the AOE forging, but totally forgot to add it to my addendum to the OP, have updated it now :genie:


#227

I think full damage would be overboard. That would mean 1-shot T6 3x3 Titaniums i think.

Perhaps, since no one ever targets the other AOE’s… ever, maybe:

Lvl1 - 3x3 @30% damage
Lvl2 - 3x3 @35% damage
Lvl3 - 3x3 @40% damage
Lvl4 - 3x3 @45% damage
Lvl5 - 3x3 @50% damage

I mean, unless someone can tell me the last time they targeted the 2x1, or 3x1…


#228

3x1 is nice for tearing up roads or tearing down walls where you don’t want the stuff beside… but really it’s easy enough to just work with a 3x3 instead. I’d be happy with the AOE boon level just improving damage instead =D


#229

3x1 is useful for grass/soil farming. Especially when you’re looking for somethin like clay and its only 2 layers of it above peaty soil. Though i wouldnt be mad at getting peaty soil and clay at the same time. Free spark


#230

Free spark is the way to go👍


#231

I like AOE and tunneling. I do wish that the dmg penalty was less though esp on 2x1, 3x1 and +.

It would take them from niche tools to something that might one day be useful… especially on higher tier worlds. Maybe 3x3 will not do enough dmg, but you can still use a + shape or something on T7, and then on T8 you could only make a 2x1 work.

This is opposed to as things exist today, and as the previous poster mentioned, I only use them in those 1% corner cases like building.

In order to do that the dmg deduction modifiers would need to be reworked (lessened) on the lower AOE boons.


#232

I reckon I’ve forged 60 odd hammers, maybe more, and hit L5 once. So for me, no this wouldn’t be welcome. It’d mean I’d be stuck with the duff random blocks one more than now. :confused:


#233

I’ll put here the thought i had over another thread.

I think every shapes should be on the different boons. And the more you level it up the less dmg reduction on it like you are proposing. but i’ll stay at 60% for that lvl 5.

So this way if someone wants the 1x3, or 1x2 or can even add more shapes, they can do it and use them.

So it would be easier to target your needs.

And definitely remove the current lvl 5 Aoe, there is no purpose for this.


#234

I like it that they said, that it will still require some luck, and practice. The fact that we can get even better tools, but that there is still some random luck and expertise involved, means there will be uniqueness, and shops with elite items. that’s what we all want. To not have 4k shops of the EXACT same thing.

I still 100% these changes because of, not inspite of all the changes. And with all the quirks, it will be much more fun, and will have more tools for different occasions. Genius.


#235

If they all fall under “Special” then it is actually much harder to target your needs (3x3, who are we kidding). This may be a good thing, but it is worth pointing out.


#236

Why not:
AOE5: 3X3X3 around hit block @60%(or 50%/40%) damage
OP and reasonable, and sweet!


#237

You asked for feedback thus… :wink:


#238

Ross, honestly I think Chompman was just making a good case for the other side of it, in case that IS something you guys decide to change. He wasn’t reading between the lines.


#239

When I first read these changes I was ok with them. It still seems like I can craft the things I wanted, and the improvements to the Quirks would make the downsides less certain.

I planned to do a few hours testing this afternoon. I hopped on the test server, did about 20-30 different items, and got so frustrated that I threw my controller across the room. As a person who enjoyed forging up until now it was a complete shock at how unfun the proposed forging system now is.

Overall impressions.

The good.

I’m struggling here. …

I like the deconstruction resin. It seems like I had to make quite a bit of use of it since the majority of my gear had stats I considered terrible. At least I got a consolation price of a few coins worth of tools back.

The bad:

The biggest part of the bad, is simply I feel like I now have not enough vigor to do much of anything. I feel forced to bring a vigor catalyst in order to manage gums, and not run out by the end. You’ll see much of my comments are related to this subject.

Another part that feels bad is it feels like I have almost no control over what I’m doing. As a gamer, I hate randomness, I don’t like to gamble in real life, and I in no way find it fun. Part of what I liked about the old system was that I could aim for a tool that I liked, and 50% of the time I’d get it, 40% of the time, I’d basically get it and 10% of the time I’d screw it up. This was acceptable to me as it felt like what I was doing was important, but It wasn’t so unbearably random that it felt like a monkey behind the keyboard could produce the same or better results. The NEW SYSTEM feels completely arbitrary. I thought it would mean I have to make smart decisions but because of the details I describe below it just feel 90% arbitrary and about 10% skill based.

Pastes and compounds tend to take very strange amount of vigor.

All pastes- Anything that can use a random amount of vigor sucks. Forging is already RNG (vigor) x RNG (stability) X RNG (boon selection) X RNG Boon points X RNG Quirks X RNG Quirkpoints. Any point you can remove RNG from that equation would be good. Vigor cost would be great. Ending with 90/X vigor or 40/X vigor feels like ■■■■.

Gambling paste- takes too much vigor to be worth it in the legitimate sense (view post below for only “valid use”). Using this at any other point reduced the quality of my tools by approximately 50 rank. An alternative it could last 2 additional rounds, but given the vigor cost, I’d still not use it.

Stabilisation paste-Not worth it. In the new system I always run out of vigor before stability, unless I do something incredibly dumb. Currently, you could remove the entire stability stat and it wouldn’t effect my highest ranked forgings.

Boon transmute. I tried a lot of combinations with this to try to make it good. Transmute early, transmute late after pumping in lots of boon. Net result of about 70 lost potential rank. This compound is now seems worthless to me. I’d probably not even use it if it cost half the vigor considering it currently requires the most costly ingredients in the game.

Effectiveness increase. I thought this would be a good change for high level forging. I was wrong. With the new vigor fight, this meant that it was often more advantageous to use lower level compounds. Pure boon 2 and Draining 1 seemed to give me about +30 and + 70 ranks respectively on average, so this made ingredient selection very confusing and frustrating.

Quirk removal catalyst- I thought this might work like boon transmute, but instead it just rerolled, and many times it rerolled the exact same freaking quirk, half of which dumped even more boon into the thing I was trying to “remove”. For 200 vigor? Maybe 50… Maybe… Many of the quirks are still pretty terrible to get, especially considering these tools are now costing thousands of coin more to make. Getting many negative effects on the tool made it feel completely unrewarding and very frustrating.

Invigoration Paste - Using this seemed to add 20 or so rank to my net item but trying to plan or strategise against the new 2 additional levels of randomness from quirks, or when using pure boon, the simple randomness of boon selection, it’s very hard to manage where to actually use it. Honestly it just feels like a luck decision that I could let my toddler make, and have no real logic behind such a decision (many of the “choices” I have now feel the same way). I’d honestly rather this cost like 100 stability and grant a flat 200 vigor or something. Managing the 6 layers of RNG is so incredibly frustrating already, having to worry about rolling buffs and debuffs makes this even more of a headache.

Quirks:

These quirks need to be flat out removed from the game:

Bouncy
Bleeding Edge

These are so laughably broken in a bad way. They both kill the user. Seriously… wtf. Did anyone actually try these?

Anyway, I can tell that my post isn’t even well thought out. I was hoping to give more valuable feedback but I was so infuriated at the new process that I can barely even give coherent feedback. I’m going to take a break for a bit, and hope to sweet mother ORT the change control servers that house this code get hit by a meteor.

Also, now is a good time to buy a few dosen extra actually good tools on live. I’m really disappointed. On paper I thought I’d like these changes. : (


#240

I didn’t notice any effect from bleeding edge, as it took 10hp every 5 seconds, but you regen 20hp every 5 secs when full of food.

I don’t know which method you were using on the test server, but there was a streamer messing around on testing last night, and he got 4 good hammers in a row using Draining 1.

Skip to 01:33:00 for the forging: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/340889995


#241

After a bit more testing and a good chunk of thought I have come to a strange conclusion.

Right now all of my best forging methods on the test server follow a simple pattern. Buff/debuff yourself while aiming for one boon, use vigor catalyst to clear the deck and gain some vigor back (much less than the old system but feels better) then repeat the process for the next two boons, while keeping you eye on quirks and dealing with them as they come. Using decon resin as a flash reset as opposed to messing with anything that touches roadrunner feathers (I Do not like their drop rate or anything associated with them tbh). This means that on average I spend 5 more minutes forging each finished tool. But end up with more tools that I want and happy quirks more often then fine quirks.

This leads to a bit of an issue, I see the trend staying mostly the same for end game forging. Draining boon compound (1 instead of 2) then vigor catalyst to give yourself enough vigor to make enough actions. @rossstephens I suggest looking at vigor as it is. We may need more overall vigor through skills, or may need to buff some of the other vigor restoring item to make the debuff/buff and catalyst combo less required to get a more controlled result.

As it is the cost to effect ratio of invigorating paste is detrimental to using it. To be honest most of the pastes are a bit off the mark. I suggest looking at them to make them more viable. Taking both vigor and stability for them seems harsh, especially when the paste adds to one or the other of those. I mean if you want invigorating paste to only return 150 vigor. (250 - 100 base cost) then take away the vigor cost and make the buff only 3 rounds… Same with stability paste…

Long and short of it, the paste options for vigor and stability at least need to be looked at (in my opinion of course) and more options for extending our forging sessions, essentially giving more ways for us to try for more at either a cost of prep, materials, skills etc.

And add more ways to clear the deck of buff and debuffs, this has made vigor catalyst a vital part of my forge just to clean up old buffs. More things in this vein would be much appreciated.

Glad you guys are reading up on these things! Keep up the awesome work!

(edit forgot a whole sentence XD)


#242

@rossstephens

Any chance you can also fix the AOE boon for spanners? Right now the spanners still just repair one coil.


#243

Might as well reveal my secrets… and ruin the fun for everyone, since in my view these changes are headed in a terrible direction.

You can also use gambling and invigoration potion to boost vigor to ~2200 or 2600, or 3000 depending on how much patience you have. It’ll cost 100, 200 or 300 stability, respectively.

Gambling paste -> 3 Invig 1s. Did you lose more than 100 stability? Use setting resin, then repeat until happy. (this way you don’t lose the hammer). Repeat until happy than use vigor catalyst.

Then you can proceed to produce a rank 400 item. I predict people are going to start bottiing this to get around the RNG.


#244

I’m away from home for a bit so I can’t play Boundless. I’d try this myself if I could, but has anyone tried mid game forging on the test server with these changes? I’m still curious to know if I’d be able to forge anything useful without power and only just getting the stats built towards a forger.

If I missed someone doing/mentioning that already in a post, let me know.


#245

You should be able to make decent mid tier tools, with maybe 2 level 3 or 4 boons using only gums and level 1 boon compound.

I produced a 1x3 with no power on a titanium tool for example using only gums and pure boon 1. If you wanted 2 specific afixes you could do it with level 1 catalyst. Here is a reference. Still plenty of room to grow.

It’s really just the endgame stuff that is terrible. I’m honestly not even sure if it produces lower rank tools, its just like 20x more random and equally more frustrating.