Forging Balance Changes on Testing

forge
testing
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#246

Keep in mind, making a titanium tool requires power. If mid game is meant to be prior to getting power, then it’s not a valid tool to use.

I have no clue how to forge because low level forging was said to be mostly useless from a thread on here so I haven’t tried it yet and figured it’d only be worthwhile to try when I’ve got power. I went out and got the lamellas at one point for the base, but haven’t touched the process since.

So I mean to say your picture tells me, being ignorant to forging, nothing about what can be made mid game; room to grow, but no clue how that can be seen from that picture. Thank you for looking into it, though.


#247

Make a glow-stick to start out.

Any item:
Apply Glow Gum, x5
Apply Draining Boon 1 until stability runs out.
Resin

Marvel in your new Glow-stick!


#248

Sorry I didn’t remember back to when I was that tier. I’m just trying to illustrate that you can make midgame tools very easily. This one is a plus shaped hammer that would probably do well for a mid tier player with only iron as well. It was very easy to produce, just put some gums on and use 1 ingredient (pure boon) and you can get that result.

Long and short of it is, forging is more accessible to mid tier and should produce attractive options at that rank.


#249

I’d need to recheck the material cost of that when I get home; seems time and material expensive over just using 5 skill points to glow all the time; I know specialization becomes more key at endgame, but at least where I’m at right now, I’m not feeling tight on skill points, so the glowing epic works for me. If I had to have this glowstick in my hand all the time, that’d be rather inconvenient when swapping between tools. Does the tool glow more than the epic provides?

@Manabanana Thanks for going into this further. So I get that what you’ve got there has 2 boons: the star-shaped block hit and the magnet thing. But there’s no quirks or defects? Is this just a really good result or what is typical? What’s the trade off in making this tool? Just the materials incurred in making the ingredients and gums?

How, and maybe this is the gist of the complaints about endgame changes, does the process, or the perks/boons, differ when trying to forge gem tools? For those same boons, and no quirks or defects, on a gem tool is it not an easier or the same process? Is it that pushing for the higher grade boons beyond what you’ve shown is where the process gets harder or the RNG is just that much more random?


#250

I don’t think you’ll ever use “just” a glow tool. I believe max Glow Boon is better than the Epic. It was just an easy entry into understanding the forge.

Second, and more useful tool: Loot Magnet

3x Special Gum
3x Trait Reduction Gum
Draining Boon 1, until you get a hit
-If it is not Loot magnet, Boon removal until its gone, then resin and try again (or, if you are a rich person… Boon Transmute, then move onto next step)
-If it is Loot Magnet, Draining Boon 1 until out of stability.

These tools are always useful, and there are many mechanics in there that help to understanding the Forge, and will get you started cheaply.

If you use the above method for a chisel, you can easily make Block Changers. As they are a Effect Boon on chisels, so just change your Gums.


#251

I used level 1 and 2 compounds only and some pastes for boon bonus, had no power coils on the forge and my skills weren’t maxed. Took stack of iron hammers and found I only have 70% (ish) efficiency.

I ended up with 1x3 AoE and 6m glow radius.

Yeah, then I used them hammers to fly past lvl 1 and 2 worlds to farm rock I wanted plus whatever basic resources I met.
On lvl 3 world it was still going decent.

So, not much needed to have some basic forged equipment that is useful enough (fast farming etc.).

That was in current system - should be even easier to craft low/mid tier tools when the new system brings flexibility increase.
Can’t wait.


#252

Don’t worry as gamers love RNG and spending a ton of time and resources trying to do crafting after reaching later levels as that’s all we care about instead of playing the actual game so we need to make it more complicated… :thinking:

One would think end game should be less RNG but more resources and higher level characters and equipment to craft more powerful end game gear like all other games do to balance it out but that’s just silly talk.


#253

Too much rng for me. I moved and its like my new setup changed my good luck for the worst. My time playing is vaulable to me so 3x3 9 dmg 1200 dur is what i try to forge or better because I farm all the mats myself i or buy them from farming. So when i go to forge there should be no rng just what I want to make. I shouldn’t be able to make unlimited amounts of this item unless I farm or buy unlimited items to forge the items. Just my opinion.

  • Now that quirks are better, Should the defect points be reduced on Imperfect Boon Compound so they still a have purpose?yes I honestly don’t know why defects are even in the game i wouldn’t use a tool with 1.
  • Is max effectiveness too high on high end (gem) tools, also do the discrepancies in flexibility between gem types make sense?No it’s not effectiveness is great
  • Should Removal Solvents give some sort of protection to rolling the same Boon/Quirk/Defect twice in a row?yes it should when I see the same boon over and over again I say what the heck this isn’t what makes me enjoy forging at all. I can’t stand it. Plus it eats vigor
  • Animations take a long time and people are skipping them, should the game have an option to speed this up?doesn’t bother me burns time but a option to skip animations and just see where the boons go would be nice

#254

One of my best hammers using was using boon 1 compound… Terrible rolls the whole way.

Almost ended up as good as the one using draining 1 (the “best”) . I’ve had no luck with pure boon 3 (not even sure where this belongs but it’s certainly below draining 1). My current best with mostly perfect rolls is 310, this one is 260…

Boon 1:

Current “best” was about 1 out of 200 the rest weren’t even close. I can fart a better hammer out on live. Perfect rolls:


#255

You want to spend more boon points to get 3x3?


#256

Frankly, this is the most disappointing thing I’ve read on these forums recently. It runs almost entirely contrary to your goals both past and present. When Forging was first introduced, the ideas was that high end, heavily forged items would be a rarity. Many of the decisions about forging and it’s inclusiveness of RNG elements centred on maintaining that single point (unless the majority of people completely misread the situation?).

However, they’re obviously not rare, and this suggests that they will continue to be common. If all it will take is a little thought and luck to get the current meta of mining hammer etc, then it sounds a lot like the ‘current’ system whereby you just need to watch a youtube video and you’ll know how to use the right items in the right order to make what you need. That’s not ‘Engaging and Thrilling’, and makes the idea of ‘Mastering Player Skill’ only relevant until the first person posts the ‘answer’. I guess that does make a system that ‘Everyone’ can get involved in, so… yay?

That aside, my biggest issue is with the current and future availability of high-end items is the effect it has on the economy. Where are new players supposed to enter the market exactly? They have very limited avenues open to them, because almost all tasks can be reliably performed at much higher efficiency than they could hope to achieve without well forged tools, so their time is essentially priced into oblivion.

If you really, REALLY have to make max-crafted tools commonly available, I believe you need to rethink resource distribution. Make it so that resources spawn only in a certain bracket of world tiers (so copper on tiers 1 through 3, with iron 2 through 4 etc). That way lower level players will still be able to (hopefully) access the lower tier forged tools for prices they can afford, using them on appropriate level planets to make resources and money. Higher level players could still choose to go to lower level planets and blow them up, but it would at least be a choice and they wouldn’t be getting everything they need as a by-product on a single high-level activity.


Discrete planet tiers
#257

And that’s where you went wrong! You need the Effect gum!

That you got it on 1 of the was pure random luck!

Try it again with the effect gum, it is really easy!


#258

Oh snap indeed :rofl::see_no_evil:


#259

haha damn

Thank you !!!

This is why some form of tooltip would be damn useful.
If you played/play diablo for example. In that forging system it has a tooltip telling you what effects you will get and a % chance. You can keep putting in gems or clicking the traits until you see what you are after on the list so at least you know you are about to try to roll for a trait that can be at least gained etc


#260

What else do you expect people to be able to do at end game as right now it’s just high end forging and high level meteor hunts really?

If they make them even harder and more rng / grindy then what hope would they have to keep forging around for most people at this level plus how bad will it get when higher level resources like blink / rift gets added?

If you are going to force a system like the forge with heavy rng then of course people are going to post the information to help people and you cannot make it useless otherwise people will have even less reason to play or gather materials / buy them.

As for lower levels not having the ability to be as efficient that’s 100% normal in games but it comes down to time for most and if you can set up shops to reduce the time to get most of the resources then higher level players will do just that and give lower level people a ton of ways to earn the resources they needed.

We saw this happening for awhile before the market crashed and people were forced to stop buying a lot of the items and had to spend more time gathering them because of it.


#261

I expect everything would fall in line with how it was originally intended, and how I personally believe it would be better for economy at large. If they were less available, people would actually have to make more considered choices about how to forge items instead of going for ‘the best set of three at/near max’, and there would be less of an exponential devaluation of new player’s time.

The only reason people ‘think’ they should be using top tier tools for all of their gameplay is because they ‘can’ use them and because they are used to using them. That doesn’t mean it’s right, or even best for the game.

Beyond that, I should probably point out that I’m not here to engage with the ‘community’ here (where it’s almost as much of a contranym as ‘humanity’ these days). I’m done with that. I’m here to leave feedback when developers request it, giving my point of view for them to read/discard as they see fit and then move on. If you (or anyone else) would like to carry on a conversation about this topic, I’d highly recommend DMing me so I can ignore it there, leaving the thread open for feedback.


Discrete planet tiers
#262

Oooo spicy!

Unfortunately im on PS4 and cant test the forge changes :pleading_face:

But I agree though. these hammers right now are crazy. But even if they stop 1 shotting T6 you can still pull an insane amount of gems with a 2 shot aoe hammer and a speed brew. With gems becoming so cheap making twice the hammers wont be a big problem. I recently started forging on live with the best ingredients and it’s too easy to target the exact boons you want.

If it turns out the changes they decide to make cause me to pump out a bunch of sub par hammers i will just open a shop and sell em to the newbs for cheap. Or just use them myself to zoom through lower level planets to farm rocks colors.

It’ll probably hurt the current shop owners selling forged gear more than soloish players like me. Or just make them raise prices exponentially on the really good hammers.

And if you’re thinking stuff like “if we cant easily demolish T6 planets what happens when T7 and T8 come out?” I would say don’t get your hopes up and expect current hammers to perform on those like they do now. I expect maybe 3-4 shot with a max aoe hammer and maybe 2-3 shot with a dmg forged low blow boon.

Long story short, i’ll adapt either way it goes. But I can agree I would prefer if the forge was more skill than rng.


#263

The following only discusses high end forging. I believe mid game forging is currently great on test:

Ok, so I’ve spent about 8 hours testing. During this time I forged well over 200 hammers. Of these 1 are what I would consider good. 0 were truly “epic”
TLDR:
Too Random
Rare ingredients don’t seem powerful
Many ingredients still useless
Overall rating: Live 7/10. Testing: 3/10

Let’s talk about hammers and why we’ve come to what’s considered “god hammers” on live.
I’m going to propose that people don’t like random outcomes. For example, if I tell you you have to farm for 1 hour (the estimated time it takes farm up enough coin, or materials to buy or create a hammer on live) and then put all those ingredients into a machine, pull the lever, and there is a very likely chance that you will produce an unusable tool, you probably wouldn’t want to do that.
Ontop of this, hammers don’t last long. I did an experiment with a forged AOE only gem tool on live, and I broke the tool in 3 minutes using speed and teaching pie (this was a 1 shotter too by the way). Persisting Pie, and level 8 durability I get approximately 18 minutes of usage out of my tool. To me, this makes it feel very fragile and fleeting. You can quite possibly spend more time forging your tool then actually using it. Why am I discussing this? Well, when we are gambling for tools like it is on test, there will never be a “tool I will always remember”. They are disposable, and fleeting and with the current durability in place, there will never be a “hammer I always remember” because I got sooo lucky. No it’s more like tissues. You might notice the difference between the free ones in a public bathroom and slightly nicer ones at someone’s house, but at the end of the day you will never notice if someone spent 300 hours making you a tissue because you use it very quickly and throw it away. Tools, in the late game, are the same way.

Ok, so when I aproach my forge, I’m hoping for 2 or 3 stats. In reality, I actually only care about 2. I really want AOE and DMG. AOE improves my grinding time by aproximately 60%, and DMG is the most important stat in the game, because it is the only way to fight block armor power creep on high tier worlds (fundamentally… if you don’t do enough dmg, the block won’t break and if you have to hit twice, then you just slowed your speed down 50%).

So why do we shoot for 3 stats on a hammer? We do it to gain control over the forging process. Here are the random elements we deal with:

  • Stability usage of ingredients
  • Vigor Usage of ingredients
  • Gum Boon selection
  • Boon Point Slider Selection
  • Boon Selection
  • (Optional) Quirk Selection
  • (Optional) Quirk Point Slider Selection
  • (Optional) Defect Selection
  • (Optional) Defect Point Slider Selection
  • (Optional) Ingredient Effects (like gambling paste)

All of these levels of randomness can at times stack on one another. So now is a time to talk about RNG. Right now, the forging process feels completely random to me. It feels like flipping a coin and waiting to see whether my ingredients go in the trash. There are certain things you can do to only minorly influence the outcome, but it feels like the majority of chance is simply just luck and waiting to see what happens.

What I would like to see is to have it feel more like chess. In chess you face an unpredictable opponent (the random element). But the good thing is you can deal with this unpredictable opponent using skill. You can carefully select which piece you use and where you place it. If your outcome is not successful, you can learn from it, and make better choices the next time.

So back to why we have shoot for these 3 boons:

  • AOE
  • DMG
  • Dura

This is a strategic selection in the current live servers. Currently, longevity only has 1 boon in the category, so if you get durability on your tool you can get it “guaranteed” (mostly) using longevity gum. This has the knock on effect of removing a potential new boon from the tool so you can focus on Special (AOE) and DMG boons. You only want 1 of each of a special or dmg boon each, and this is done so you can be sure to direct all the boon points to those specific boons and not waste them on something like crit dmg or magnet.

Don’t get me wrong, durability is great, but honestly, we can just craft more tools, so it isn’t like we require it, it’s nice to have and it removes randomness. This is desirable because you just removed 1 layer RNG from the equation. I’d argue people are doing this precisely because they would find all the RNG that already exists on live (before quirks or even defects are added to the mix) unattractive.

In summary people are making the selections they do likely because they don’t like the random nature. And this makes sense, if you tell someone this tool takes 1 or 10 hours to grind for vs this takes exactly 2 hours to grind for, a significant portion will select the 2nd option.

So here’s what I thought adding 2 extra deck slots was going to do- I thought Damn, they are adding all these additional layers of RNG through quirks, but hey, at least they gave me some extra space to deal with them by just spending more ingredients to control their outcome.

The problem is that at the same time you nerfed vigor (via draining compound), which means that you spend almost all your time trying to fight vigor drain and in many cases you have all these cool ingredients, but you can’t use them. This feels even worse than just not being able to bring them in the deck at all.

To combat these issues I’m going to offer some suggestions:

  1. Increase starting vigor (consider adding a food buff that increases this… we need more consumables in the game). Alternatively consider adding a boon that allows you to increase your vigor (then you could forge an item that makes you better at forging… cool).
    1a) OR decrease vigor usage for level 2, 3 ingredients across the board.

  2. Because of problems with vigor usage, many of the tier 1 compounds are better than tier 2 compounds (or in some cases tier 1 are better than tier 3, because they use less vigor). One idea here is to make all the costs in terms of stability and vigor the same. Higher level ingredients should be more expensive to craft and require more power from the extractor, and that’s it.

  3. The following compounds are bugged:
    Gambling Paste and Stabilization Paste - When you get the Bonus from gambling paste, it skips the calculation for stabilization paste. This means it consumes a stack of stabilization but you don’t get the bonus. (be careful fixing this as it could lead to stacking)

  4. If you are dead set on keeping all this RNG, give us more information. For example, gums need to have info in the tool tip telling us how the percentages work. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had 6 stacks of Dura, AOE and DMG gums on a tool but still somehow rolled glow. Why?! This is endlessly frustrating. Take a page from Las Vegas. They post all of your odds right there on the slot machine.

  5. Make Boon Removal (defect / quirk) solvent feel powerful and effective. Because of the problems with vigor costs across the board, level 1 is better than level 2. Also these should not ever reroll the same boon, and they should definitely not ever reroll the same boon with MORE points (which can currently happen).

  6. Quirks:
    Bouncy needs to be fixed. Currently it kills you or causes you to take fall dmg at the wrong times. 2 examples, you take fall dmg when you fall from moderate height, and you also take fall dmg from running up small inclines. Since fall dmg is still % based for some strange reason, this is even worse at higher levels. If the tooltip is correct and it should behave like a trampoline, then you should not take any dmg during these times.

    Bleeding edge is very anoying. It causes your character to make random sound effects from taking dmg and it kills you. This should be reworked to just prevent the natural +25hp regen, and that would be bad enough.

    General note: Some advice former game designer, you should avoid annoying your customers with annoying sounds (with all quirks). Sound should be viewed as an asset, you can make people fall in love with your game with a good sound track / effects. Having all these routes of playing very annoying sound effects is probably a design bad choice. I should note this is one of the few games I feel I have to play with the sound off already.

  7. Stabilization Paste 2 costs 2x the vigor and the same amount of stability as Invigoration Paste 2. They give the same bonus to their respective stats which means… this is confusing.

  8. Boon Boost pastes - With the high level of effectiveness now available these have been made obsolete. Consider removing them, or only consuming the buff when boon points are applied. As it is with all the RNG it feels like there’s never a good time to use it.

  9. Gambling paste - Currently, there is never any good time to use this. Consider only using the charges when stability is affected (not every roll)

  10. Vigor Catalyst feels like a must have. It would be nice to have a different way to get rid of gum effects. It’s also forcing users to feel like they HAVE to use draining boon compound. Pure boon uses so much vigor it’s almost punishing to use.

  11. Boon boost catalyst. I want to like this but because it forces you to use both fate paste AND to use something that increases boon points afterwards, it disables you from handling random events like the wrong boon or a bad roll. Basically it feels like all the randomness of forging means I should never use it if I want to be adaptable. There is never a time when I can control the next 5 things (1/5 * 1/5 *1/5 ect ect ect…) chance. Not gonna happen.

  12. Boon points catalyst. Broken. Rework these. Currently they are not getting a bonus from effectiveness. That on top of the currently expensive price in terms of vigor but they still suck. Consider having them gain from effectiveness. Alternatively, consider having them roll the boon points slider as well. Or reduce vigor cost.

  13. Imperfect boon compound(s) - Reduce the defect points by 50% across the board. If not, remove these from the game.

  14. Unstable boon compounds - You are asking me to add another 4 layers of RNG. Make it worth it. Reduce the defect in half. Or cut the vigor cost.

  15. Defect reversal catalyst. So many better options available that its best to avoid defects all together to avoid having to carry an additional slot of ingredients just to deal with them. Reduce vigor cost 75%. I probably still won’t bring it, but it’s a step in the right direction.

  16. If you don’t want to rework defect points for each individual forge ingredient, consider making them take 2x or 3x more points to level up. The defects are so bad that they often make the tool unusable, and there is no real benefit to using compounds that apply defects over pure boon or draining boon.

  17. consider adding a way or new ingredient other than vigor catalyst to change gums to allow us to target our boons.

  18. Trait reduction or Trait expansion. Gums work very strangely. they are very unpredictable. I have spent hours in front of the forge and I still have no idea if trait reduction gums work in tandem with other gums or wether I have to only have trait reduction on there. and this is coming from someone who has spent at least 50 hours in front of the forge, scoured the forums, talked directly with the devs ect. I feel bad for an average player.

  19. Figure out a way to let us target 2 boons without having to occupy the third with some garbage boon that we intentionally screw up. For example, I often put a boon of a category I don’t like on the tool, so i can use 2 gums to target things I do want. If you don’t want us to reliably make god hammers with 3 good boons, let us target 2. Think about something like trait reduction gum or compound or whatever gives you 100% chance to roll into only existing boons. Balance it, or whatever. Trait reduction gum should do this but honestly, it’s so random that it’s not worth bringing, plus as mentioned before it doesn’t behave well when other gums are applied.

Anyway, that’s enough for now. TLDR version:

Give us more vigor, or reduce the cost.
Allow us to target things and use skill instead of RNG.
Fix the broken ingredients I listed.

Right now I feel like I have to be one of those old ladies in a casino, smoking 3 packs a day, and pushing the button on a slot machine while not even looking at the screen.
Turn me into a chess player, and make me actively engaged in the process. Reduce the RNG and make it feel like I can use skill to overcome the 5-10 layers of randomness in the process.

@rossstephens


#264

On this note I’d love a Lock Boon Resin or Varnishing Resin or something where you can lock a Boon in at a certain level and ensure points go into the other Boons from that point on. It’d also help with locking AOE at T4 if that is to remain as is.


#265

Very informative post!

I feel i agree with points 3, 10, 13, 14 and 17 strongly.

And

I’d like to suggest one change here that might make all these defect compounds worth it-
What about a solvent that turns 50/75/100% of defect points into vigour…

This would open up the avenue to use fate pastes to safely roll current defect cost compounds, and take over the vigour aspect of vig.catalyst without clearing current buffs/ debuffs… or have it clear them to avoid spamming of both this and vig catalyst.

I just think this would make the defect risk worth it, same way vigour catalyst makes the risk of stacking debuffs worth it.

A cleansing paste or gum to wipe gum effects (at the cost of losing buffs but no debuffs) could also work?