Forging Balance Changes on Testing

forge
testing
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f4f0cea1890> #<Tag:0x00007f4f0cea16d8>

#206

Your view of the quirk mechanics is educational and positive inspiring.
Thanks.


#207

Thank you.

As an absolute newb to forging, I decided I wanted a block changing chisel. The iron chisel is a super low value item I could lose without worries and was something I could use to try to learn what the hell it was I was seeing on the screen.

I had 10 chisels

I was using special gum , unstable 1 [pure boon was too costly with the spitter eyes] and my setting resin. I figured I didn’t need anything more than this.

My character has epic forge skill and is missing 4-5 points [I think] from the top bar of stats that mention úsed in centraforge’ I also had 2 x advanced power coils on the centraforge [still to this day have no idea what the coils actually do on the forge tbh]

1st chisel - I added 2 gum firstly and got magnet, light and then the changing bonus

I figured this was pretty easy

I never saw the changing bonus on any of the other 9 chisels

For chisel 3 I did 3 special gum, then next it was 4 then 5 going up and up and up because I had no idea what it was that was causing me to not get the changing buff. It came on the 1st chisel with 2 special gums - was I just incredibly lucky

Numbers would help to see possibly why I only ever saw it once.

As an end to the story. If I could not even forge a stupid chisel, there was absolutely no way I was putting anything else in to that machine and wasting both items and forge mats.

I am hopping the new changes will improve things and I am looking forward to trying again. As it is, it’s a completely waste of space machine to me at the moment


#208

Updated the OP for those jumping into the convo fresh today


#209

Lol, i do loopholes. I find it fascinating working around issues. I’ve played over 1800h, and the richest I’ve ever been was on payday when i finished the bunny (wasnt even half a millionaire hehe). I’ve considered myself as being “done” with the game for most of my hours played, despite not owning a planet, not having fully coiled setups or having a cash pool to swim in.

My joy comes 85% from finding new ways of getting things done with every patch (yes, nerf patches need love too). I also cant see this slowing down in the near future as every change makes me happy looking for holes/ better ways


#210

Oooh on the speed up issue, just a thought, but would it be possible to have a “fast roll” tickbox on the forge ui itself? When selected, all animations (compound “waves”, sliders filling and markers jumping, buffs activating) initiate and play through at the same time… this should cut down round time to like 5s, allow people who know what they’re doing to keep an eye on the part they are interested in, and not flush weeks of art department work all at the same time :blush:


#211

Higher end tools should benefit from higher effectiveness and hit the cap also provided it requires more of the skills and coils to reach it unlike lower level tools as they are meant to be higher end forging thus this is where more skills and coils comes into play.

We understand that you feel lower level gear should be forged also but only letting them hit it while more expensive and useful tools cannot makes no gameplay sense and if anything that should be the opposite really as forging higher level tools is usually done with higher level boons unlike weaker tools because of the expense thus they need more boon points to be able to do it.

The only issue will be the compounds that exceed 500 points and with the extra effectiveness it will exceed the 1,000 points for a full bar and the extra being wasted but those that have that in this version have too many negatives for end game forging right now and will be something people who do not have the skills and coils will want to use for the extra points.

The only reason to lower effectiveness on gem tools is to force people to use more and more compounds that add quirks for late level forging and with no way to really control what ones we get right now and with vigor regen being killed off so much even if we wanted quirks on tools this would just make it that much worse for people who are at this level.

You need to understand people who forge already have to deal with a lot of RNG on the forge and that’s a serious issue already and making it even worse with either a ton of random quirks or low effectiveness on higher end tools makes no sense when these drawbacks are how all other games handle early level crafting as the ingredients of crafting are lower and the equipment / skill set is also lower for these lower levels but they are punished for these advantages with weaker stats and such drawbacks.

You cannot make ingredient costs high and make forging such a mess for end game tools without removing it for people who are at this level unless we get a lot more changes with this update to make it worth while.

As for the different flexibility between gem tools it’s just going to get people to focus on the top ones again if it means they can forge them better as we saw when diamond hammer was really the only one used before the stats on the others got adjusted so making them balanced will encourage them all to be used more often even if that’s still not the case right now for a lot of the tools.

Absolutely as we either have people just closing the forge when they start one and then opening it back up or editing the game files to do it and that always feels a bit risky for multiplayer games.


#212

Like I said, i was just listing topics raised by other players, do not take that as a “THIS WILL CHANGE”. Please read the lines, not between them :man_facepalming:


#213

Most of the quirks don’t do much, if anything, negative when mining.

Sinking Feeling: Doesn’t matter on a mining hammer.
Full Health: Doesn’t give negative effect until you are below 55% Health. Other than that, it adds Swing Speed.
Fully Filled: Activates negative effect only when max energy below 60%, reduces energy when 60-100% Full
Icy Ground: Doesn’t matter when mining
Auto Jump: Is annoying, but doesnt really affect when mining.
Slo-Mo: No effect when mining
Bleeding Edge: No effect when mining
Bouncy Feet: No effect when mining
Wonky trigger: No effect when mining, as you are constantly swinging anyway. Is actually desired, for a free extra 400 durability
Random Noise: No effect when mining

Small effect Quirks:
Carpe Night/Day: These are negated by the Forger. If you normally stop at lvl8 +dmg, just take it to lvl9 to negate the debuff. otherwise, avoid these 2

Bad Quirks to avoid:
-Nutritionally challenged
-Ravenous: the one that debuffs (adds energy use) when full
-Poor Health: The one that debuffs action speed when full health

If you add a Quirk Transmute to your deck, then you can always turn a bad quirk into a good (or no effect) one.

This is just when it comes to mining hammers. When it comes to Item changers or loot magnets, none of the quirks really matter

Of course weapons/grapples are another story. I havent messed with those, other than making a prank Grapple, with Wonky Trigger and Hookshot… LOL!! =P


#214

100% put some sort of armor/protection to rolling same boon/quirk/defect.

I strongly suggest keeping max effectiveness on tools, since it should take 7200 power to attain, which is alot of coils, alot of gathering. It’s something you need to be “late game” or exceptionally skilled to attain as a progression player. (if someone hands you everything you need devs can’t, and shouldn’t, attempt to balance that kind of game play) but possibly changing the different gems to have more in line effectiveness.

Defect points reduced would make me use more of the defect containing compounds at least to test. And if they remain cheap they become a good intro option forge wise.

Animation skipping/speedup would be a lovely quality of life addition. But If it takes time from other things I’m more than happy to use tricks or just wait through animations for a bit longer for them to stay in que and not push something else back.

All in all the forging changes are great, they give alot more control to the forger and enable us to have a goal (set of boons) and a kind of lucky win (quirks we like or that synergize with the boons) if the goal was for forged gear that’s amazing to also have quirks I can garuntee that all my best tools will have quirks on them. Even if others don’t like them I love the changes and want so many quirky tools!


#215

A note on your forge run: I don’t have numbers, so cant give the answers you’d like, but i believe i can help with what you need.

Firstly welcome and good on you for trying!
Now to your questions.
gums. It sounds like all the boons you got were from the special category. More gums mean lower chance of other categories, but don’t report or seem to affect which boon from that category gets picked.

targeting change boon. As you noted you dont need a full deck of ingredients to target one boon if nothing else matters.
Targeting a single boon is easier when there are fewer boons in that category. Glow boon is pretty much 100% (only one targeted by glow gum). Shotgun on a slingbow is 1 of about 4 or 5 under special gum - much harder.

The secret of making quick and easy change chisels lies in those 2 untouched gums - trait reduction and expansion since you have space for them on your deck. In your examples, you were getting special traits but not the one you wanted. Slap on a trait expansion gum and subsequent boon points are more likely to pick a new boon from the specials you dont yet have!
Conversely, if you get what you want on your first roll, dropping a trait reduction compound makes points more likely to go to the boon you already have than a new one. Fewer boons mean more points in the one you want, less compounds wasted on levelling pointless other boons.

Sorry if this is off topic maybe i should start a forgers guide lol


#216

I Would like to see this please, its annoying to remove a boon i dont want and getting it back 4 times in a row, while i try to roll something with a certain gum.


#217

Thank you that is really helpful.

I watch video but to be honest, pretty much every video no matter how hard it tries simply misses the stuff a newb actually needs to know. I think because the person doing the video knows a lot about it, they forget what causes issues to new arrivals to the machine and they tend to baffle on about all sorts of stuff that really makes no sense or hasn’t been explained completely - sorry Jivita - that icludes yours :slight_smile:

I managed to work out that adding the special gum produces that boon icon and each time I added another special gum, the number increased in the boon icon. I figured that adding more would help me to skip the magnet and light as it was starting to look like I had to get those [or others] before the change boon would arrive.

I think I put 25 special gums on one f them which made no difference.

I want really aware of trait expansion so I will try this after the new changes are applied in game

I appreciate your response in highlighting how I can get the chisel :smiley:

of the 10 I had, I got the change option once so 1 in 10 the way I was doing it was a very expensive attempt hence I did not return :frowning:


#218

@Urbanmongrel If you’re online in a bit i can maybe give you temp permissions and take you through a “hunt for the change chisel” lol, have you watch a forge or 2


#219

haha

Really appreciated. Unfortunately the pleasures for working for yourself means I am the worst boss ever and stuck at work :smiley:


#220

Starting a forgers guide though is something you should definately do.

When I opened the machine , I had 4 or 5 compounds sat there , I was honestly thinking , at what point can I use the compounds!

Never ever ocured to me they were only ever going to be used to craft other liquids :stuck_out_tongue:

Why solvent,gum,paste etc. Why not just one compound - appears to be done simply to confuse and although I keep strapping on coils, absolutely no idea what bonus they are giving except making the machine look cooler perhaps.

These are all obvious things to everyone except me it seems and totally missed by guides :stuck_out_tongue:


#221

I’d really like to bring your attention back to this:

any thoughts on fixing the AOE 5 boon? I fear that if it does not get fixed here that it wont be fixed for a very long time. Upgrading a boon should not be considered an item-bricking failure.


#222

Agreed. This particular one needs to be retooled.


#223

Would it be a better suggestion to make 3x3 aoe the level 5? And make the random level 1 and lowering damage of the random? That would make it target able but take more boon points for a full aoe tool.

Or is the suggestion to remove level 5 completely? Make the boon max at 4.

Or are we going for a route when level 5 is just an upgrade to the 3x3? If we could have it up the % of damage it does from max then frankly it would make those t6 tools everyone seems polarized on even easier.

This is difficult to balance by keeping level 5… I suggest @rossstephens that of these balances, removing the 5th level would be much safer of a bet than trying to balance the 5th level in line.

Just my 2coins though :slight_smile: suggestions and reminders always help!

(edit for fat fingers XD)


#224

Personally I think the Adjacent boon should be applied in a similar fashion to the heal / regen bomb boons. It should just be a random one shot to apply it, so you could end up with any of them. You then just apply other boons to vary the strength at which it hits etc.


#225

as far as how the different levels, from my perspective I think the following would be upgrades:

lvl1 -> random other block (currently lvl5)
lvl2 -> block directly below (currently lvl2)
lvl3 -> 3-wide (currently lvl1)
lvl4 -> plus sign (currently lvl3)
lvl5 -> 3x3 (currently lvl4)

honestly I dont really care about anything than the 3x3. I can work with the order of anything below it. My problem is that the current lvl5 boon is NOT an upgrade to the current lvl4 boon.