Forging Balance Changes on Testing

forge
testing
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f4f08a09908> #<Tag:0x00007f4f08a097c8>

#102

But on the other hand…


#103

I dont expect it everytime. Clearly that doesnt happen. However it should stay possible without any negative effects. And if that’s the case for you as well then maybe you should stop making it sound so easy to the dev’s. Just my opinion. I read another forum you said you could do a great forge every single time. Now your saying that’s not true. My point is the dev’s obviously listen to you and your kinda abusing that by spreading false info.


#104

As a matter of fact Crete I believe it was one you started called “please nerf this” referring to the boon compound and vigor catalyst combo


#105

This was definitely needed. Sometimes the diamond hammer costed more than the materials.

This is a good compromise.

I wholeheartedly agree.

This is going to be incredibly useful for farming underwater gleam

Two things I think you may want to consider later on:

  • A quirk that increases swimming speed
  • A quirk that reduces or negates lava damage
  • A quirk that improves armor against specific mobs (Cuttletrunk armor, Spitter armor, etc.)

Couple things I found in game on the test branch

Inconsistent

This in-game description needs an update.

RemoveThis

Please consider removing the 5th level of the AoE boon. It really is frustrating to get when the resources matter. It may be a matter of balance and I understand that.

So this is really confusing. Does it roll the 75% chance for each forge ingredient individually? Does it always save the gear? I think if I understand this correctly it could be better worded as:


#107

This is one area where I still don’t quite understand your point of view: why should forging be an end game game system? At least, to my recollection, that’s never been the intention; going all the way back to when they originally introduced it.

And, personally, I don’t think it makes sense as an end game system:

  • Forging, if more broadly available, gives players the chance to tinker with their items. This is something that’s useful at any level, particularly if the effects scale up with the items (which we somewhat get with these changes).

  • Related to above, this works well in other games (notably, Diablo 3’s mystic, WoW’s enchanting), as a way of stretching the items you have available.

  • We’re only at the mid game right now. Specials are not yet available, nor are high level planets.

  • As more content (gear) becomes available, forging scales up with it. But it’s still available at all levels for people to tinker. Similarly, by being a system that people “grow up” with, it gives them more opportunity to learn how to build good decks and respond to RNG


#108

I’m curious about this part:

Are you suggesting that low to mid level forgers should only be able to forge utility buffs like this? If so then I’m not sure I agree with that. I’m not a forger but my general expectation would be that low and mid level forgers ought to be able to create toned down versions of the master level tools. Like 3x1 along with a moderate buff to one of +dmg or +speed.


#109

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#110

It works well in Diablo 3 because while yes that system is RNG, it is simple RNG, one dice roll only per try. and farming the mats to do this is something that happens more or less automatically while your out having fun or trying to push higher rifts, You do not need to go out of your way to do this, so it makes sense. furthermore, the failure result in D3 for its re rolling of stats at no point will ruin an item.

You cannot compare the success of how D3 doses it to how boundless doses it when the level of RNG is much higher in boundless, and the effort needed is alot higher in boundless. The materials for re rolling in D3 are common. Most of the materials for boundless are uncommon or rare. for example. the effect gum, that takes thermal sacs, which while is not rare, is an uncommon drop.

And lastly. the system in D3 is not designed to punish players for using it sooner, Boundless with the defects, is designed to punish players for using it before they reach the “end game” because they do not have access to the rare or very rare materials that enables them to avoid defects


Comparing this

To this

Is kind of unfair, One is a complex system, The other is simple system.
Sorry about the german in the D3 screenshot. I play some of my games in german.


#111

Even late game materials will be an issue with this system except for pure boon’s now and with no way to regen vigor it will be an issue crafting the end game items that we used to be able to do unless the changes are able to compensate enough or we spam enough road runner solvents around but that’s not something nearly common enough for most players to do.


#112

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#113

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#114

For one thing, it gives End Game players something to do.

You break through the Gem Wall, you can now Make Gem Tools… Ok, Now what? What else is there? Before, the answer was Forging, now there is nothing else to do. You break the Gem wall, clap your hands, then leave the game till more content comes in, cause you’ve already done Forging by this point, and might actually make breaking through the Gem Wall even easier, letting you hit End Game faster, and now having nothing there.

To Me, Forging was a reward. You went through the game with normal tools, Iron, Titanium, and even Gem tools. Now you can make Forged Tools for your Alts, to help them get up to the level of your main Alt much faster, easier, and more fun in the case of 3x3. It was tricky to use, required a lot of resources, and was very RNG so took a lot of work. All things expected of an End Game system, except the RNG stuff. Still need that to be ripped away.

But now? Now Forging isn’t just for those at end game, now low tier and mid tier players can access and flood the market with ■■■■ items no one wants or is willing to use. They can’t make items as powerful or useful as End Game Forge Masters anyways, so why even give them access? All it does is bring the game down, makes the End Game have less to do, and nothing new. All just so Low and Mid tier players can waste a bunch of time and resources on a useless system they can’t even use correctly, to make a bunch of useless items no one is going to want to use? really?

How is any of that Better, Balanced, or Fun?




Thread is closed, so my reply to @Biv post will just have to be stuck onto here:
PS, guess we won’t be giving any feedback to these changes now.

You’re forgetting a few things tho, Biv. First, is that Devs aren’t Gods. As shown with the previous Forge Changes they tried to make, the general goal of making a Game is both, what do the Devs want to make, AND what the players want to play.

Players generally don’t want to play a boring grindfest, jsut because there is a grindfest. We can just skip this game and go play many other better titles if we wanted that.

Whats more, was both a Reward, and pretty much Required for getting past the Gem Wall. People could get past the Gem wall without a 3x3 Hammer. But boy did it take forever and no one liked it. You never see anyone telling people “Just buy a Gem Hammer and do it.” It’s always “Buy a 3x3 Gem Hammer and do it”

So those that got through the wall first, could get access to the Forge, and forge the better gear that helps people progress faster and easier. That is their reward, to either keep it for themselves, or sell them to other players who haven’t past the Gem wall.

It was Balanced. The best players, made the best tools, and could give those tools out to the lower level players. All the while disposing off the useless weak junk stuff that no one wants.

Now tho, everyone will get access to Forging, everyone gets to make junk items, the market is going to be flooded with Forged Tools, and your going to have to look through each and every single one carefully to make sure there isn’t a Defect, Quirk, or useless Boon you don’t want.

Instead of changing something that works to be better. They made it worse.

As for the:

Then they shouldn’t Nerf the better gear, but make the rest of the game more balanced. Aka, release T7 worlds, where with a Perfect Gem Tool and Strength Potions, you still have to take 10 hits to break a single block.

Balanced.

Or just make it so you need to be Lvl 50, be a Dedicated Master Forger, and be forced to go to a very special Centraforge out in the wild somewhere which changes location every 4 hours.

Nerfing, in any form, in any game, is almost always a bad idea, cause it never fixes the problem, and usually breaks many other things instead.

All I see now, is just another Nerf to Forging, another Nerf, after many other Nerfs. There is no boosting, no new content, no fun. Just making people have to grind even more, with no reward, no chance to have fun, no way to progress and make the game easier over time. Boundless is looking more and more like a Job, and not a game. Fun should always be at the forfront of every video game. And this game? It’s not fun. And this change? It doesn’t add fun, and takes it away.


#115

Personally i am no big fan of the forging process. It takes too long waiting out the animations (though the leave centraforge trick helps, but its not a nice solution) and the results are mixed. I resort to using sapphire gems, since they do not make the criticat damage boon worthless like with daimonds. Even then i get one decent tool per five tries using the drain compound/vigour catalyst trick.

Gathering of the materials to make the compounds and catalysts is a big grind. Hoppercores i usually get from hunts and even then they are sparse, and don’t get me started on the feathers. That transmute boon thing is actually quite nice, but worthless in the forging process since feathers are extremely rare.

Also the level 5 AOE boon is worthless. I forged some emerald hammers with this, but they now serve on my hunting alt to mine out accidental finds. For my miner these tools are not usefull. I am all for a level 5 AOE which gives the 3 by 3 effect but with full damage. That would actually be nice since these changes make forging somwehat less effective.

Personally i would remove forging all together from the game an return to the old system which was there for a while in beta where the AOE effect was on the gem tools themselves with daimond hitting three blocks, and emerald 5 blocks for instance.


#116

Why? Just use that start over juice everyone is talking about. This should mean less junk, not more.

You guys might have noticed, I don’t forge. I’d like to forge, but I look in the forge menu and just see confusion. And, since I have the worst RNG luck in the history of gaming, I know I’m never going to be able to forge top quality gear. So I don’t bother. If they change thier mind on the RNG I’ll take a look.

So let me give an outsiders opinion.

First, I see a good attitude from the devs. They have a clear goal in mind and are trying to make things slightly more accessible.

But wow is there a disconnect.

There seems to be a group in here yelling “na na na na na” with thier fingers in thier ears.

Players: "We want to be able to reliably forge T6, one hit 3x3 hammers with no negative traits.

Devs: “No, that’s too powerful and unbalancing. We want weapons like that to be ridiculously rare”.

Players: “Forging is end game content!”

Devs: "No, it’s not. We want you forging mid game (which, I assume, would mean a lvl 25 dedicated alt for forging and lvl 25 hunters and gatherer alts)

You are not getting reliable, no negative trait uber gear. Every time you guys find a way to do it, they nerf it again. Take a hint. They don’t want it. They consider it destabilizing, most likely because of content in the pipeline.

So instead of fighting them on it, help them streamline the system they are trying to make, not the one you want them to make.


#117

I think you’ll be happier when you play with it. Your worries are more reflecting what forging was than how this test version is.


#118

If you’re on PC I posted a way to help shorten those dramatically.


#119

There is a lot of talk about RNG replacing skill. Games of skill allow for dice rolls and dice rolls are RNG. Many games of skills use an RNG element to prevent the game from being static and the same. I think we can frame this feedback to be more constructive vs just talking about RNG and have points to be corrected with the system.

The RNG in the centraforge:

  • Which boon/quirk/defect the points get allocated to when the slider lands
  • Where the slider lands
  • Which Boon/Quirk/Defect gets selected when a new boon/quirk/defect is being added
  • If a new boon/quirk/defect will get added or if points will go to an existing boon/quirk/defect

Gums help mitigate and influence the first, third and forth RNG
Fate Paste helps mitigate the second RNG

I think the problem with the RNG isn’t the RNG itself, but our lack of knowledge in it so that we can’t actually have any calculation of the risk/reward.

If you hand me 2 dice and say roll two sixes…I know the odds.
If I am playing a game a skill and need to move 10 spaces with two dice…I know the odds (or I can google it, lets be real my math is terrible) and make decisions about what I do based on that.

However, with Fate Paste and Gums they don’t communicate to us the odds and as a result we are limited in how strategically we play.

Does a fate paste increase the odds of a high roll by 30%? 50%? Does it prevent lower rolls 80% of the time? 30% of the time?
Is the slider a straight dice roll or is it modified? What are the odds of getting a 100% slider roll? Is it 1 in a 100 or 1 in 10?
When you add a Gum does it increase the likelihood by 15% for the first? 20%? Does each other gum add the same or does it cap at 75%? Only go up 10% per Gum added?

I think the main frustration with the centraforge is that as a system it is cool, but it doesn’t communicate the value of the decisions of the player. As a result, player engagement is low in those decision.

Right now, when I put in 4 gums (longevity) and the slider puts points into an Effect Boon, I have no idea how rare that is or common. So it just feels bad.

Did I do good adding the 4 gums? Was it a good strat? I don’t know…it seems like points are going to my longevity stuff more…but are they? Would 5 be better or 3? I don’t know, since I have no idea what they actually do.

Also the centraforge doesn’t telegraph to the player when they make a good decision or get a desired outcome. It is hard for me to tell if my Gums added the boon I wanted, or if it just randomly happened. My player agency in these decisions is low.

When I play a dice game and roll 2 sixes, I can high five my team and be excited. It shows me the results and information…that doesn’t happen in the centraforge since it is all behind the scenes…and it fails often enough that you don’t feel like you are being strategic, you just feel like you are hoping it works out and trying to do what you can to get there.

I hope that helps.

TL:DR:

  • Increase player agency in the centraforge by telegraphing to the players when their decisions influenced the outcome so that they can know their decisions matter
  • Allow the RNG elements of the centraforge to be communicated to the player so that they can choose Gums/items and be strategic vs guessing at their impact

I think these items will help the overall experience with the centraforge.


#120

Other then Crit chance, maps being randomized, and loot table RNG. There are not many games, if any, that I can think of right now that I play a lot of that haves RNG trying to create an extra level of difficultly. 2 of theses don’t really effect difficultly all that much, in D3 the maps being random, might at times if you are trying to do a level your character is not geared well enought for. and thats less on the RNG and more because you are trying to do something that is a little out of reach.

Most of this RNG that is used to make the game less static, is for replay factor, not difficultly.

I disagree. I know where the RNG is going to take place. Infact a small amount of it is slightly predictable. But that doesn’t change the fact that a bad round of RNG happening over and over again, can create enough damage that your forge will give a bad result.

I can even try to account that I am going to have or am in the process of having very bad luck with the RNG, and I can reduce my expectations from getting 3 boons I want down to getting 2 boons I want, and the RNG can still at times be bad enough, to fail to give me a result that now meets my reduced expectations.

Yes we have some tools to reduce some of the RNG, without it the forge would most certainly be closer to the Asian level of sadistic RNG. but the fact of the matter is, we do not have tools for all of it. And the tools we do have. Are going to cost a lot more once they break the vigor cata way of doing things. If the deck had 10 more slots AND we had more useful tools (not compounds) that target more of the RNG aspect, then maybe i can agree that you can make strategically good choices.

This is something you will get a feel of over time
1 Gum seem to be a very low chance.
2 seems to be a medium chance of getting it
3 seems to be a fairly good chance of getting it
4 seems to be a good chance of getting it

If you open up the forge, or any system with at least a modest amount of complexity to it, and expect to be an expert at understanding it in full right off the bat, then you are expecting to much. Myself and some others have been forging long enough to have a pretty good feel of this. The bad feeling is the bad RNG that happens over and over again, and you can’t do anything but pull that slot machine lever again and hope it doesn’t happen a 3rd time, a 4th time, a 5th time.

Eh, not for me at least, If that works for you then thats wonderful. Taking absolute control of a situation and trying to force it to do what I want is what gets me excited. Rolling the dice isn’t taking control, the value rolled is 100% out of your control.

Maybe this might help reduce the learning curve involved with the forge, but this dose’s little to improve the situation of the RNG, and doses nothing to improve the overall experience if the devs want to keep suppressing things that do work well.


#121

All you need is a small amount of luck in the current forging to make something perfect… Not even that much. I think adding RNG elements in a game is generally a good idea as long as it seems fair. Like the forging as is definitely needed some kind of change because it was pretty… unfun after you get the perfect rotation. I haven’t had as much fun in boundless as I did last night on the test server and trying out some forge rotations. Making most quirks buffs is pretty crazy while adding some flare to it as well! I dunno it’s a lot of fun getting to relearn the end game thing XD


#122

Honestly I think you missed the point of much of my post. A real shame, since we are talking about the same thing.

I want to focus on this comment and ask you, how would you know?

How do you know if RNG would not be limited if they shared the % and made it more clear?

You acknowledge earlier in your post that using a gum only feels like it could be more effective, but you don’t have any numbers. What if 6 gums is 100%? What if 3 is the cap? Is the cap 60% or 70%? We don’t know.

A portion of your post suggested this thread is for experienced forgers and that some will ‘get a feel for it’. To be clear, I have been forging max tier gear since before any posts on the forum showed the community how. I have 100s of max tier forged items and forge almost daily. I have helped teach other PS members how to forge and answered forging questions here on the forum.

My experience does not replace the need to make strategic (devs wording, not mine) decisions based on RNG elements. And right now, the information is not there to do that well which, I believe, why so much about the RNG is frustrating.

You can create a great Hammer, repeat the process and have it fail 3 times. Is it just bad luck? Do you need to change strategy? You can create a good hammer 3 times, then fail 1 time. Was it good luck it was happening before? Should you stay the course or adjust strats?

These questions aren’t answered by the system, and I think that is a shame…and very frustrating for people.

Knowing the % would improve my ability to forge, as an experienced forger. It would save me mats, and increase my chances of success.