Future communication between devs and community

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Podcast sounds great! Feel free to invite your best Australian pal Squidgy to the chat! :wink:

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As I said in my last post, @james wants to reply to this himself, but unfortunately for personal reasons he will be unavailable for the foreseeable future. So you’re stuck with me and @ben!

Firstly I’d like to say that we completely accept your concerns about communication, it hasn’t been good enough for an early access game. We will work with you guys as much as we can to improve matters, so please continue to let us know if what we’re doing right and what we’re doing wrong.

I’d like to say a couple of things about where we are:

  • Everything that gets posted on the forum is read by us and taken on board. We are constantly integrating your ideas into the design and your opinions are referred to during our discussions.
  • Our lack of communication is not a lack of desire or interesting in keeping you up to date, it is purely because we’re trying to fit it in to our working days and it often gets pushed off the end of the list. As you point out, this shouldn’t be the case, and we will fix it.
  • The last few months have had all the coders porting the game to C++, this has made it harder to give interesting updates. Now we are moving back on to new features there should be a lot more to talk about.

Up until now we’ve been leaving it to individual people to post as and when they can fit it in, and hoping that will get the right information out there. That’s not worked, so instead we’re going to try a weekly update, which as @ben has already mentioned may take the form of a podcast or a hangout. We’ll do one this week and take it from there. I will also continue to answer the questions in the Q&A thread as quickly as I can.

If you want to speak to us directly please message @ben, @james and myself together and one of us will get back to you.

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Yeah, podcast sounds great! It’s a good format, and hopefully it doesn’t eat up too much of your time (via set up & editing)

Hopefully all is well, or will be well

:thumbsup: this sounds like a great approach

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Can you make this a Youtube Video - please no live-stream (I’m sure most of us can’t attend a live-stream either because of time offset or because of available time). Personally i’d prefer a text because it’s easier to quote and talk about but a video would work too if it’s easier for you.

Hope @james is well and back soon :slight_smile:

That’s good to hear, i really appreciate this attitude. Rest assured that i always express all my concerns.

Even if it’s good to here that you integrate our ideas (which i’ve never doubted) i see a problem with this (and that’s one of the main reasons for me that i wrote this topic). I’ve made a BPMN diagram for better explanation but i try my best to explain it in text to for everyone not familiar with the diagram syntax.

This picture shows my current feeling / understanding of the EA in B< (which is hopefully superseded now) which feels like a “monologue”. After we’ve received the initial definition of the concept there was no new (or very little) information flow about new concepts to us. Even if you integrate all our ideas an refine your game concept there is a problem that there are different understandings of the game. There is your “Game concept” which is refined and detailed. You know what to do and how things work and there is our very crude “Idea of the game”. Since we do not know what your concept of the game is, it’s really really hard to offer helpful, new ideas or come up with things we’d like to see because we don’t have the insights of your concept. Maybe we’d have super cool new ideas if we would know what’s going on. Furthermore there are different “Ideas of the game” for every single player because the concepts of the game offered by you (the devs) are most likely small leaks in sub-clauses. Not everyone is aware of everything you said and therefore it’s hart to start a solid and productive discussian about a topic.

The diagram above shows my understanding of “how” EA should work (and how i saw it in successful EA games) and what i hope to see (more) in the future. This concept is a real “dialogue” between devs and community. As you can see the most important point in this diagram is on the one hand that there is a “Common Game Concept” which is known to everyone. On the other hand there is a message / information flow into both directions (devs -> players | players -> devs). You you come up with “New Concepts” (build on the “Common Game Concept”) and when you share it with us we can come up with “Ideas and Notes” in direct relation to your “New Concept”. In this way a discussion can be build on solid informations and can be much more productive and constructive. An other benefit is, that you don’t need to be scared if we like the result or not (you get feedback immediately) and that the iteration can be accelerated (if we now what you plan we can work on concepts that fit into the current “Common Game Concept” and fewer time is wasted with ideas that won’t fit in the game - therefore there is less reading and tweaking overhead for you).

[quote=“olliepurkiss, post:16, topic:4141”]
Up until now we’ve been leaving it to individual people to post [but] That’s not worked, so instead we’re going to try a weekly update[/quote]

This is an excellent adaptation and i’m looking forward to it.

+1 :thumbsup:

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And one that’s been suggested for over half a year :joy:

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1 month later …

it is now more than a month passed since i wrote this topic. In my opinion it’s now the time for a small recap about what has changed, what is good and where there is still need for optimization.

The New

The changes in the past month showed clearly that this game is not abandoned by the devs. I think this is a good sign for a lot of players and a clear message for all who thought the game was dead (especially in the steam review section).

In the past four weeks we saw a dramatically increased number of dev posts and devlog posts and i hope we will see a lot more in the next time. Also the amount of shared informations changed from “show what we have” more into the direction of “show what we want to accomplish with the game”. This is a good starting point for further discussions within the community and with the devs.

In my opinion it’s also a good sign that all devs are much more active in the forum now. We saw a lot of posts by “other” devs than “only” @james or @ben.

The Good

What are the good changes in the past:

  1. More Devlog Topics
  2. Content changed from “what we have” to “what we want to accomplish with the game”
  3. More dev activity in the forum
  4. Game-Concepts shared (eg. Guild beacons, beacon persistence to name only a few)
  5. More regular updates (thanks to the C++ port i think)

The Bad

It’s still pitty to see that only a few of the questions from the question appeal topic have been answered completely (after that long time). Also a lot of the answers are “vague” and not really clear (usually only after demand - if there is one).

  1. Only few questions from “Questions Appeal” were answered completely
  2. Vague answers about questions
  3. Often necessary to ask for details
  4. Difficult to understand / see how the player opinion affects your decisions

@james Last but not least some things are forgotten (maybe because you have a lot to do - but you said this on April 18 [20 days ago]) like:

Conclusion

The “new” communication strategy is going in the right direction and is a lot more what i’d expect from a EA game than the prior strategy. It’s also obvious that you care for your community and you want to deliver the best game possible.

i hope you will continue with the current strategy and don’t drop it again. Thanks that you took my concerns so seriously (@james, @olliepurkiss, @ben and all other in the team).

I’m looking forward on what is coming and i think you do a great job :thumbsup:

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WHY AM I AN ‘ONLY’ :sob:

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That just means you’re special and unique!

Even if @Havok40k is joking I agree with this. There should be at least an official dev log with the trailer or something according to the event. It’s “unusual” to skip a weekly devlog without any info (yes I know there have been posts, but not in the devlog category … I’m tiered of always naming the obvious …). There have been a lot of delays in the last time too (yes, I know @james was ill).

Never the less the devlog time should be respected. In the meanwhile, Factorio had it’s #168 Friday fact in time … they can do it … why now Boundless ? (Because deadlines are “boundless” ? :slight_frown: )

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Your devlog came in the form of a fully realized trailer demo. Literally all info that could be gleaned from a typical devlog (except maybe who was responsible for working on each feature) can be gleaned from watching the demo. More so, in fact as you actually get to see it in action.

I’m beginning to wonder if you backed this game to have fun, or to fulfill some sort of delusion of authority? You aren’t owed a devlog, it is a courtesy that @james does on his spare time when not working on the game.

Other developers doing things a certain way does not determine what is a mandatory practice in the game dev industry.

If a devlog was released for this previous week, it would contain little to no useful information that we do not already know from the demo.

So relax, you don’t want to wear out the dev’s patience with our community, do you?

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That is wrong ! No, it’s not in the form of a trailer demo. I can’t see anything I can’t do in the current game (do you see something new ??? Expect some now items …)

Wrong too! Is there any info about the beacon persistence ? Is there any news about items ? Topics that pushed up in the last two day that had no answer within the last 9 months. Are there any info about the skill tree ? also no answer within the last couple of weeks / days…

All in all, there is a lot of information missing :frowning:

You are wright, other games doing things on other practice and this might be better (just comparing players and fund)

Why not push a devlog with this info ? This is just insane!!! devlog should be released FREQUENTLY … and not if the devs like to do!

I already gave up on this topic (sorry not sorry). At the moment there is few that catches my interest. And you all know I am active in this forum and I like to help out where ever I can!


EDIT:

Do I own something ? NO … Do i like to get informed like any other player / backer else ? YES.

This is something he should do in his work time … As said before … there are plenty of other games doing this right … and there is boundless (doing a lot of things wrong - mostly EA stuff) I have absolutely no problems to start a new discussion!

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You watching the latest video? I’ll assume as much. I don’t know how closely you watched, but I saw numerous new items and re-texured items such as:
Slingbow update, grapple hook update (clawed thing) essences, new warp conduit update, updated portals, new blocks, new monsters and multiple tiers, new attacks, new animations, new emotes, new chat features, new trade features, new navigation features, new totem features, the new sanctuary (which is part of the tutorial phase), new combat features and more. I’m being totally vague of course, but all of those things are currently not in the live build. As was mentioned before, we can expect to see all of these features in the live version soon.

Wrong too! Is there any info about the beacon persistence ? Is there any news about items ? Topics that pushed up in the last two day that had no answer within the last 9 months. Are there any info about the skill tree ? also no answer within the last couple of weeks / days…
All in all, there is a lot of information missing :frowning:

You would not get speculation or specifics like that in a devlog weekly update anyway, so that’s irrelevant. I also think you forget that the last few weeks / days have been preoccupied by traveling half way around the world to present the trailer, as already mentioned.

Why not push a devlog with this info ? This is just insane!!! devlog should be released FREQUENTLY … and not if the devs like to do!

Nah, you’re insane. And impatient. Who are you to make such outrageous demands? We got a huge content drop this week, but you’re losing it over a devlog not being on time. Madness!

I already gave up on this topic (sorry not sorry). At the moment there is few that catches my interest. And you all know I am active in this forum and I like to help out where ever I can!

Your edit disagrees.

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As is said before … expect new items. That is the only new thing you name. I can’t see anything new in the game (If I start the game there is everything in the old state).

That is something we hear a lot in the last moth … when is “soon” (any detail before “new year” is welcome).

Why exactly are details irrelevant if they were asked by the community ? they are highly relevant IMO!

More than 2 Weeks for a little trailer ? Can’t agree … are there only 2 devs ? … What are the other 13 doing ? (currently there are 15 devs on this board …)

Disagree. I like to get informed like most of the backers! I don’t outrage I just like to get “valid” news about the game I once backed … a lot have changed and a lot is new … what’s the current state in dev ? it can’t be insane to ask this question! Stop protect everything the devs do and start asking questions about the game !!!

What exactly is the “huge” content drop this week ? please enlighten me and tell me everything that is new. I backed this game in late 2014 and we already had beacons, crafting and “friendship” … the only thing we are missing is “progression” but sorry this is not worth mentioning at this time! We also lost some of the old features like the “minimap”!

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soon …

I can’t here this f*** word… this word I hear since over a years every few weeks again… I paid a lot of money for a game with active dev`s to support them. But I don’t see anything for the money. They killed the minimap and the grappling hook(no wire since round about 1 year), delete the hook shoot (don’t remember the correct name) and some other things. What is new ? Some Crafting machines, some professions (but only a ground version).

Sorry but this is much to less new content in this long time, I play this game since 22/23.12.2014 and I have over 400 hours on this game. 200 hour in the first 1-2 month. So don’t say I don’t know the game.

If it would be possible to take back my money I would make this actual, but unfortunately it does not work.
Why ? Because the game is not nearly that what the dev`s promised at the start. And sry after 2 years a expect a bit more content as this all. And no information only if we ask 2 or 3 weeks every day we a few information.

edit: What did you think why the community is so small ? I can say it to you because we get no content and no information. The forum here is nearly dead.

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unfortunately, I need to agree

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Well don’t expect me to hold you back.

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I wish you both could. It would give the development team WAY more time to focus on what actually matters (game development) instead of having to deal with your rediculous demands.

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Now there is harsh tone and directly hostile.

Try to keep the discussion civil.

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@GenocideAngel: Sorry did I missed something ? What’re your experiences with this game so far ? You are only writing every 6 months and you are naming other people’s opinions:

It’s definitely not up to you to judge my (/our) opinions about the dev state so far :smiley: Sorry I need to laugh :smiley:


Recap: A lot of the fanboys miss my point: Again, I don’t say everything is bad … again, I just say the communication is bad!

I tend to be a lurker. It’s only when someone’s self-entitlement triggers me to the point of rage that I tend to call out stupidity when I see it.this is one of the most transparent dev teams I have ever had the privilege of backing, and it disgust me to see somebody give them so much ■■■■ when they are bending over backwards to meet the communities demands.

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