Poll: Crafting Skills


#41

I like this very mucho. I like having 3 types of character. Like ALL mmo’s there is a crafter, hunter, druid, tank, healer etc. I liked very much to have diff looks for each character and names of each.

So to me this is a perfect idea Karko. IF one wants to only grind one character, then one could spend time across the gambit of skills on just a single character. If other people like myself want to spend certain skill experience on certain characters only, then we can still have our multiple toons. I myself would choose this coarse so I can keep inventory and gear loaded appropriately without constantly changing everything when I felt like hunting.

Only thing is that MMO’s with multi classes can max level a character within each class. The priest/healer whatever, can max level being just that. Boundless however, you will never max level just by crafting. Unless you play this for ten years straight.


#42

So, what if the Core group of skills had Basic Crafting as it is (but that would include basic cooking in furnace) and some sort of Basic Machine Crafting (allowing building all machines apart from Forge as well as craft all basic recipes in them: so, no separate skill to build a machine and separate to craft things).

Then in Crafting group there would be Advanced Machine Crafting (opening advanced recipes in machines unlocked previously and allowing to build Forge and craft everything in it; also unlocking furnace recipes like glass and cooking buff foods, so all the persisting and floating etc.) and Bulk/Mass Crafting (self-explanatory).

Last step is the specialisation or unique crafting skills in separate skill group being unlocked a bit further down the path. Wouldn’t open any new machines or recipes, just give skills allowing creating items with bonuses (in case of items with stats, such as tools and weapons) or additional patterns and colours and looks (in case of decorative building blocks, clothing, furniture etc. or maybe even items creating buffs like healing etc. that can be placed inside beacons to give builds actual function). Examples: Hammer Forger, Slingbow Crafter, Forge Master (better chance of successful upgrading tools, a few unique upgrades not available from Advanced Machine Crafting?), Interior Designer (extra props and decor) etc. Also including Power Coils Crafting here.

So, unlocking crafting would happen in 3 steps:
Core Skills: 2 skills (Basic Crafting and Basic Machine Crafting) covered in Tutorial and covering not just Workbench and furnace as it is now, but also basic recipes from all machines (apart from Forge) and basic cooking in Furnace for starting characters.
Crafting Skills: 3 skills (Advanced Machine Crafting and Bulk/Mass Crafting) covering Forge and unlocking advanced recipes in all machines that weren’t covered plus allowing Bulk and Mass Crafting.
Crafting Mastery: several skills (Power Coil Crafting plus all imaginable unique bonuses/recipes unlocking skills) - cost of those skills should be such that no character could unlock them all. To be true, ideally one character would only really be able to cover Power Coils (obvious choice) and 1-2 specialisations (like Hammer or Slingbow or Furniture or Cooking special skills) - imagining that there would be no more than 10 -ish skills like that. This way crafters become unique characters offering unique items of just few types and those looking for such items wont be able to get them from just one crafter.

Crafting the way we know would be covered in 2 easy steps with 5 skills - Tutorial asks for rather symbolic price in skill-points and advanced part would have moderate cost, so affordable for even none-crafting character builds. It’s only the last group that would make a character a real crafter as opposite to hunter, miner, builder, explorer or generalist (skill point cost would have to be really high there).


#43

How many people just clicked the option that had the most votes?

This forum needs to be expressed more to all players when they are starting out. Only 89 ppl voting here.


#44

Idea: rather than lock skills, focus on efficiency.

Let a character obtain all abilities, but make it hard to become efficient at all but a few.

Mechanics:


Break skills out into categories (mostly as they are today): combat, defense, trading, crafting, building, exploration, gathering, etc. Within each category…

…it takes a short amount of time (few hours) to unlock all the abilities in that category. Aka a tutorial (much like we have today, but a bit more explicit).

  • The tutorial process is effectively free (maybe the base skills unlock directly via the tutorial feats?)

  • For example: crafters end up learning all recipes, builders learn to access all chisel types, fighters can use all weapon abilities, etc.


Once the base abilities are unlocked, players can then focus on the efficiency of that category, by investing time and tradeoffs into the categories they are most interested in…

…each category has an array of efficiency skills that players can choose to unlock.

  • For example: crafters can reduce the time it takes to craft, amount of materials required, etc. defense improves damage reduction, atmospheric protection, etc.

…skill points are earned as they are today, and each category’s skills become (exponentially) more expensive the more you invest into that category.

…it should be practically impossible to max out all categories in any reasonable amount of time (years/decades).

…there can still be interesting capstone skills here. For example

  • give gathers a skill that causes tools to affect two blocks deep

To encourage variety in the player base, introduce the ability for players to choose a small number of categories to specialize in. Each category specialized in reduces the growth curve for skills in that category.

For example, without specialization, each skill might cost <base_price> * 1.25 ^ <num_in_category>. But with specialization, the multiplier might drop to 1.1 - which makes skills for that category considerably less expensive.

Aka, you become more efficient at learning the skills for the categories you want to specialize in.


Honestly, this seems to be pretty close to the existing system, with the exception of the specialization idea.

Implied: no skill cap, and skill point earnings must grow at a slower rate than prices increase


#45

You mean, like classes.


#46

No; I’m talking about a single character that can do it all, but is more efficient at some of it


#47

Like a class?


#48

Maybe I should be more specific to help you understand the scope of my question.

Take a MMO that has been around for a long time. You pick your class – whatever that may be. Then you can pick from a list of professions, for crafting skills. But you also get base skills, like fishing, cooking, and first aid. So, essentially you “CAN” do it all, but you also can’t. The class has nothing to do with the professions. However! There are racial bonuses, and adept crafts people for a given profession. So…


#49

I’d just have one request regarding the rework of crafting skills / skills in general:
Could we get Skillpoints separately for each Category?

I think the current setup tempts new players (and I fell for that as well) to think that, if you want to play as crafter, you better spend all your points into crafting (like we’re accustomed to from other games) only to be frustrated when realizing that you need to spread your points in a very particular way to end up with a feasible character.

In my imagination a max level player would have obtained enough skillpoints within each category to unlock ~2/3 of the respective perks. So you end up with characters that are not locked up behind one specific activity while also maintaining variety among max level characters.


#50

What would be helpful to have right from the beginning is a skill tree for each profession available that shows how many total points are possible and then you can plan your points before you even begin or after a few levels. Total available points should be enough to have one profession at max, all necessary general skills (like some amount of warp distance, stamina regeneration and health) plus enough to fill the remaining professions through the low level or a little into advanced) level. Then players can choose one tree to fill (or none if they want to bring everything fairly high but nothing maxed) and have the general skills to whatever level they like with remaining points divided in other professions however they choose. As long as people can see it, then they can plan it and make their character decent at everything but master of nothing, or they can be a master at something and competent at everything at least through low level (say in weapons and equipment steel would be a good limit). But don’t make it where every character can do everything without any interaction with other people or alts. Preferably there aren’t enough alts available to cover all professions so that everyone participates in the economy. If people don’t have to buy then most won’t buy and there won’t be anyone to sell to so we may as well just have NPC shopkeepers then.


#51

i think you have got a nice point… if i’m not mistaken taking the skill tree as it is now as i understood (with some skill directly available to spend points and others to be related to a skill that you have to take before)

to make an example: i can make an hunter really proficent investing some point in fast block positioning and grapple fastness (as i can go and hunt hanging from a tree or building fast barricades to stop a charging mob or the shot of a tentacle/spitter instead of investing everything in vitality

[EDIT: reguarding the economy i do not agree, people have also to figgure out if they really want to be a selling crafter with a shop or a face to face merchant, or if they want to go for tasks (like: hi everybody, in need of anything?) i mean, you have to cut trough and make your own niche in the market, and compete… being a market actor it’s not a class or profession you can do with skill point, you need the “market predatory sense” :smiley: :japanese_ogre: :smiley:


#52

I think its a bit of a stretch to think that everyone would end up doing everything themselves. Not only is there the time constraint with this, but also, not everyone enjoys every aspect (mining, treecutting, gathering leaves, combat for drops, etc). I think some people will gladly pay to avoid certain aspects.

I have the ability with alts to do everything now, and yet, I still buy a lot of things. Sometimes because its a good deal, sometimes because its just easier than the time or effort it would take me to do it, and sometimes because there are just days I don’t feel like mining (or whatever) for hours. I’ve probably made a couple million or two just from sales at this point (not counting feats), and yet I only have a couple 100k left. I’d say the market is working about as well as it can with the limited number of players.


#53

At the moment I’ve got a good selection of skills covered with my 2 alts that allows me to do/make pretty much most things but I don’t and that’s because of the one thing no amount of skill points can give me and that is time. I like to know that if I want to take the time and trouble to make something that I can but just as @Stormsoul said I too spend a lot of my coin to buy stuff as well. I tend to only have about 150k max at any one time available because quite often I’ll buy what I need to supplement the crafting so I can concentrate more on the things I enjoy doing which is exploring and building. I think if someone plays Boundless long enough then they should eventually be able to get all the skill points. If they have invested the time then why not have the reward of a maxed out character if they want.


#54

My concern about the “do it all, but skill up to be better” approach is mainly that it’s poor incentive to cooperate with others, it makes early game feel grindy, and it entirely removes the need for intermediate tiers of progression. Why craft copper or iron if you can go straight to gem tools- just with a longer craft time? Why buy anything if you can make your own? Also it just feels better unlocking abilities than it does unlocking a 5% crafting time efficiency.


#55

Well, you would still have to gather everything, and finding gems isn’t exactly a walk in the park :stuck_out_tongue: especially as a low level player. You also would need at least a gold hammer to mine the gems…


#56

Current market prices of a gem hammer are well within the reach of a player by lvl 8-10. A frugal miner could recoup the investment by 400% easily, therefore bypassing the need to ever craft another lower tier tool again, even without proper masteries.

Infact, this can be done now with existing talent systems and 0 masteries. Not having skill gated crafting skills only exacerbate the problem.


#57

It just seems to me there are far more merchants than there are buyers. Most merchants as is have not had any stock it seems in ages and I rarely see anyone looking. That is with characters that can’t do it all and many people only have one character. Make the ability for that one character to do it all and you are reducing the percentage of players that will make purchases on a regular basis. Sure, quadruple the player base and you have more buyers, but, the percentage doesn’t change since the number of sellers quadruples too. The economy will do better if everyone needs to participate in it sometimes. That is done by having more specialist types than there are available characters per player.

Shroud of the Avatar seems to be doing a good thing as far as economy. You have one character and that character can do everything that it’s class is capable of. You don’t get skills points for anything automatically. Mine and you get mining points. Make leather products you get leathercrafting points. There are a lot of different abilities and it would take forever to learn all the crafting if you are also doing any fighting with weapons or magic or healing etc. along with farming and fishing, skinning, etc. I don’t think anyone does that as there simply isn’t time. Some people almost exclusively do crafting and alchemy or whichever crafts that most enjoy and do very little fighting as they are busy gathering and crafting things to sell. Others do a lot of fighting and whatever mats they get in the process they sell to crafters. Some do a fair amount of fighting and have the basics of most crafts learned, but, anything advanced they purchase. When you get to levels like 10, 20, and 40 in skills you can go to a trainer and with in game gold purchase abilities and you can go to them as well as player owned NPC’s to purchase recipes and patterns. When you learn a recipe you have the ability to sell that knowledge. The player base isn’t huge yet, but, the crafting and skill systems look good. My guess watching others is the vast majority of players don’t craft anything beyond the basics. A few learn everything and can craft large homes or inns etc. and make money by getting hired by players to build for them, make the best weapons, armor or whatever.

As for the argument that time is a constraint so people don’t craft or don’t gather, that isn’t exactly a great reason to give everyone the ability to do as they choose to do. If we got rid of skill points based on levels and went to skill levels based on what you actually do then I have no problem with it. People that don’t care to craft at least until they are high level won’t ever have the ability to craft much as they won’t do enough crafting ever to raise their ability. That works great due to the time factor as well as the lack of interest in various activities depending on the individual. Handing out skills though for things people don’t do normally though encourages them to do what they need for their level or buy good things that last a long time at low levels and get the skills with skill points so once you can do more interesting or higher value crafting like with gems then suddenly you craft having skipped the rest. Skills based on using the skill make more sense and tend to be better for the economy.


#58

I think I must be missing something in your comments. Given that your post is working on the supposition that a newbie having access to all the recipes is bad, you seem to be saying that you think a level 8 - 10 newbie could buy a gem hammer, and then reliably survive long enough and on a higher tier planet so that they can get those materials back (4 times over), AND have the capacity to make enough spark, AND have a workshop with enough power supplied to it. All so that they can craft their own gem hammers and never have to make lower tier tools?

Damn, that is one hell of a newbie.


#59

Nobody is new forever, and all of us will be starting at lvl 1 when 1.0 comes out. This is not short sighted boasting- I’ve done this on an alt before the power update to prove the very same point once already. The only real roadblocks a new player faces to their progression (provided crafting is not gated by skill points, as proposed) is time, and toxic atmospheres (planned future update.)
Access to higher level planets is free via portal networks. Gem tools are cheap, 5k in many instances. By lvl 8 a player can easily have several stacks of stone hammers and shovels for simple tunneling, access to an atlas for quickly finding hot spots of components and devices, and cooked steaks for energy regen and passive healing. I’d craft a single beacon and a dozen crafting tables for storage, then use a stone hammer for digging, gem hammer for resources only. It’s easy to mine 20k coin worth of resources off a single gem hammer when only using it to break resources. Caves are rarely dangerous, and random spawns can be bypassed, blocked up, or burried. Additional food is plentiful in the form of edible lamellas. It would be slow, but I think any experienced early access miner could pull it off in just a few days.


#60

It would free up alot of skill points if we weren’t forced to put them into basic skills. Especially since when you get to a certain point the basic skills start to cost upwards of 30 rather than the more reasonable early level cost.

I agree with the more advanced skills costing around 30 as you can benefit greatly from the advanced skills. I understand why that is in place but maybe just add new skills to unlock rather than blocking basic skills that will help so much early game. Just a thought! Thanks for being so active in the forums!