Settlement Fixes

Tags: #<Tag:0x00007fa0d0e8e018> #<Tag:0x00007fa0d0e8df50>

I like the idea of Settlements (and the higher tiers), but I think there should be a way to transfer ownership to 1 person permanently, and then they can transfer it to whomever if they wish (so long as whoever you’re trying to give ownership to is in the Top 5 for Prestige and/or friended.)

I think this would let people trying to build themed settlements (such as myself) and general cities (where they’d be the King or whatever) easier, and would also prevent ownership from changing around too much.

Also, from what I’ve heard the Capitol will change based on whichever Great City has the most Prestige; I think there should be a way for people to vote on which place should be the Capitol (or perhaps the Top 10 Worldwide Prestige cities get to vote on whichever Settlement should be the Capitol)

I understand where your coming from. However take a moment and think about this. There are great hunts for the hunters. There are vast places for gatherers with many diff planets. So to battle it out for the capitol of the planet would be really the only incentive to build all the time for builders right? Not saying your wrong or that it should change one way or another. But keep in mind there has to be a reason or incentive for some to keep going right?

Battling for something isn’t the only reason we build. Actually the prestige system just creates people that will build cities with the most prestige based items not based on true creativity and team work… It turns into gleam spam, gem spam, or whatever is most prestige. Also people that have the most plots will always win the prestige fight… so voting or other ways to determine the capital would be nice too.

5 Likes

The only trouble with a voting system is that it just turns into a popularity contest. Say, for example, there are 2 towns competing for the capital… town A has 30 residents and town B has 5. Town A could be entirely made from mud huts, but because they have 30 residents, they’re at an advantage due to their numbers. The only way around that would be to disallow players from voting either for a settlement they are a part of, or from a world they have a beacon on.

Footfall could possibly be included into the prestige equation though, as residents footfall is not counted anyway. Popularity would then be automatically determined by how many visitors a settlement has.

3 Likes

I would still like the option on our beacons to be able to opt out of being swallowed up by others builds. If I’ve built something why should my prestige count towards someone else’s settlement just because they’ve used a ton of gleam and bricks plus if someone is trying to create their own little settlement with a particular style that isn’t necessarily recognised by the system as highly prestigious and then a couple of people come along and build a huge structure on your doorstep, they can easily swallow you up and you’d have no choice in the matter.

2 Likes

I agree that popularity can be an issue in just true voting but I believe at least that means that the people playing on the server have a say across the board. A prestige system just creates a different type of popularity contest – the popular prestige block and other stuff like that.

Case in point. On Berlyn we had New Berlyn as the Capital but I built Eden with help. Even Havok agreed it would make a nice Capital city. Yet we had some people building a road of gleam to compete for capital. I never would have had the prestige to compete with the larger builds BECAUSE we wanted the city to be nice and sweet and SMALL. I think many would have agreed it would have been a nice capital at that time because of the design it had. Yes in a prestige system there is no way to do that unless I played some hidden prestige vault game… At least a voting system would have given everyone a chance. The prestige just gives the zealot and people that plays the most a chance…

So if I have to pick I would at least prefer to do something that gives people a choice to select the city they want instead of someone that games the “system” to get the reward. Yes it can go bad but overall we have a good community here so I think smarter decisions would be made and the cities that make most sense to be capital would win.

(Note I don’t really agree with the capital tax system, etc. So I don’t feel that is a point to go against my above argument because I would remove that as well.)

And yes I still think the option to opt out on settlement should be available too. CHOICE is important in everything and solves lots of issues.

1 Like

Any system that we have can be abused. Right now its people building prestige vaults, but if you switched it to votes it would just be a popularity contest. If we switched it to footfall, @slyduda 's shop would become the capital of the whole boundless universe. (Which I fully support btw.) :wink:

One thing we have to remember is that the game isn’t being designed for just our current community. Soon™ we will have thousands of others joining us and there may be gaming communities here that are larger than our current active player base. What will work for us now, may not work for a large group that we all hope is coming upon release.

I would like to go on the record as being against a popular vote for capital though. With the strong personalities, even within our small community, it would cause a lot of unwanted friction between the few players we have. A lot of us builders just build to do cool things, but there are a few groups who are actively competing against each other on certain planets. Having a large group of the community taking sides on who should be capital of those planets would probably be detrimental to our community as a whole. Sometimes impartial numbers are just better. Though having popular votes for like a “Wonder” or something on a planet may be cool if it only provides a title.

Though if anyone wants to create a city on a planet where we don’t care about the capital and just wants to build without any pressure come out to Andooweem. We have diamonds. :wink:

-Zcyra

2 Likes

How about no capital and just a listing of city names that can be sorted. I just personally don’t want huge cities of ugly prestige spam and people trying to annex other cities and all the other things they will do to abuse the system to be the “top dog.”

2 Likes

The fact that someone will try to abuse ANY system that’s implemented, as @Peyago correctly pointed out, makes me think that any planet having a capital should be an informal thing at most.

If a settlement looks attractive, and has useful portals, and facilitates lots of meaningful trading, it will attract a lot of active players who want to be a part of it… and whether that’s broadcast to the entire Boundless community or not, people will naturally recognize the importance of that location.

Someone asks, “Where do I go to buy this?” and you reply, “Over at XYZ…”

Someone asks, “How do I get to ABC from here?” and you reply, “Go to XYZ, take a leftt…”

You don’t become a capital by having the world’s largest block of Machined Titanium… You don’t become a capital by getting the most people to push Like on your Facebook page… It really just happens on its own, when people acknowledge it through their behavior and not the results of some survey.

As with the current crafting setup/resource economy, I think a lot of things just need a chance to develop organically over time, and I’m concerned that the devs may use too heavy of a hand in trying to engineer this stuff on their own.

Maybe a capital can be defined by footfall rather than prestige. If a place is attracting a lot of people because of facilities in terms of portal networks and shops then surely that’s got to be more important than because it’s built with the most gleam and gold.

5 Likes

The answer is of course taken from all these points:

Capital Rank can be a special list which has the following factors to decide it. Assuming a generic value from a current capital town.

Prestige
Footfall
Number of Unique Accounts, (not Characters) with a fueled beacon there.

All these would need to offer diminishing returns imho, so having a really big shop, a really big vault or a really big guild only gets you so far up the rankings, you need a measure of each to become the capital.

Personally when the game releases, I think we could do with a few higher city ranks as well. Assuming more players, something to aim for that isn’t a capital, but is beyond a great city, would indeed be great. Metroplex or Legendary City, etc. However you can all judge that for yourself when it does release, personally I think the game will benefit from an even higher tier or two.

I hope they don’t do away with the prestige system completely as i’ve been enjoying climbing the rankings, it gives us competitive players something to do. Yet for capital cities I agree, some other considerations might be warranted. For regular rankings, the increased coin from footfall and the increased number of builders, already gives you an edge to gain more prestige.

Separate lists might be cool as well, on a separate UI screen.
Settlements Ranked by Prestige
Settlements Ranked by Footfall
Settlements Ranked by Player Count (Beacons)

1 Like

is a vualt full off gems to maintain warden title gem spam?
our a game mecanic?

Yeah, I think the footfall metric might be a step in the right direction.

Pun intended.

4 Likes

I think we need a society where there is NO capital or economy system based on money.

As much as I have no interest in being a planetary capital or influencing who is… it’s still a meaningful goal that a lot of people will want to pursue, and I suspect you’re in the minority here.

That being said, if we are going to have a capital and a few dozen people chasing after that goal, I’d just like to make sure it isn’t as gaudy or obnoxious as some of those folks would try to make it.

2 Likes

I was more joking than serious about not having one. Overall I am in the same belief that IF we need one they need to be set up in a way where people won’t make yucky ones or something that can be taken advantage of to become the “top one”.

I don’t have any great ideas how to make that happen but if I had to do it and not use voting then I would focus on a capital being the one that has the most people living in it from a single account (not alts). If we have 10 accounts having plots in 1 town and 15 accounts having plots in another town. Then the second one would be the capital because it has the most individual accounts.

1 Like

I don’t have any great ideas how to make that happen but if I had to do it and not use voting then I would focus on a capital being the one that has the most people living in it from a single account (not alts). If we have 10 accounts having plots in 1 town and 15 accounts having plots in another town. Then the second one would be the capital because it has the most individual accounts.

I get the point you are trying to make, but unfortunately i do not think that would really work well. Just look at various capitals of states and countries in real world history. The capitals were not necessarily established where the highest volume of people congregated. Historically, almost the opposite happened, and people flocked to capitals post establishment. (this obviously is not the case for every capital, but quite a lot) Literally half of US states (25 exact) have changed their capital at least once in history. ‘fun-fact’ The last one being Oklahoma in 1910.

Now from a Boundless perspective… More people does mean a larger potential space for a capital, but as the current build of the game stands not every player can be a builder (unless they level an alt), so more people would not necessarily mean a better looking or a better established planetary capital.

1 Like

I wasn’t saying this is how real world capitals were created. There were a variety of reasons like commerce, location, history, government location, etc. What ever they were Boundless doesn’t those factors at this point in its evolution.

One thing I do know is that Capitals were not decided on a prestige system based on whoever puts the most highest prestige blocks down wins the prize. The system as it stands now with ranking of cities will only lead to people doing whatever necessary to place blocks down so they can be on top or in the top rankings. This really isn’t good and certainly not inspiring.

Technically every 1st character in an account IS a builder because you must do specific things to work your way up levels and skill points. So while it might not stay that, you kind of need to build a house for machines and other stuff to sustain any of your characters and alts especially with no real economy model being present in the game.

In any event, I didn’t say that it would be a better looking place. All I know is if we don’t use voting (because people hate and think that only means a popularity contest) then something on where people have plots is less of a potential for abuse because I for one know I will not put a plot in an ugly city or support a place that doesn’t provide me some benefit. I think many other people would see it the same way.

Even if I did place plots into an ugly city I would do that more likely than just placing plots in a city where someone spammed gems and gold/titanium or built areas with no function like we have now just so they can be on top. We’ve seen many fights for capital that were just a result of plot and prestige blocks from those that had the time and most plots.

In a system where each account and IF they have a plot in a city at least puts some power back Into the hands of that individual over a person that put down $1000 for a 200% plot bonus or has time to place excessive prestige blocks. That is originally why I felt a “voting system” was best because each account should have a right to decide what place they feel deserves to be capital for 6 months/a year or whatever. Put the power in the hands of the COMMUNITY and not a few individuals that can play the game constantly or will do whatever is needed to game the system in their favor. Yes voting contains popularity but I and I am sure others would never vote for a person that is being a jerk or playing some fake game just so they could have the capital.

TLDR: Prestige system is not perfect by any-means, however a voting system would be just as easy (if not easier) to manipulate…

Point by point i guess…

I never implied that you said that, i merely tried to use actual history as a way to try and make my point, i guess it didn’t land… my bad.

I really don’t want to have to go back and find it so i can quote it right now, but i’m pretty sure (atleast in the current build) there is a bit more to it than that. I do believe i remember one of the devs stating that they use a fairly complex algorithm to generate a prestige metric… that is a little more involved than just assigning an unchanging value to blocks, pretty sure the whole point of said algorithm is to prevent the high value block spam that you have mentioned. Will block values or the prestige system remain unchanged between now and when 1.0 drops?.. i highly doubt it.

I disagree with this completely, i worked my way up to gem tools living in a hole in the ground. I certainly did not need to build a house to do it, and i think you might be lumping building and crafting into one category of “building”… they are 2 different things. I don’t remember having to spec into chisels, decorative props or any of the other building skills in order to progress… still haven’t.

I don’t need to think that at all, that is exactly what a voting system would turn into… The results could easily be manipulated in any number of ways…
I would happily accept a voting system if you could give me a guarantee that every single vote would be cast with zero bias, zero favoritism, and zero manipulation… but you can’t… because that would be impossible.

Anyone that has more time to devote to their character/build will have a better and/more opportunities than those who do not, that is just part of life man…

  1. Where can i pay a 1k for plot bonuses? where are you getting this?
  2. Do you really not notice the easiest way to manipulate a voting system that counts individual accounts would be the person with the most RL money would win? Please… don’t say count/monitor IP addresses… that is so very easy to get around. If you think people wouldn’t pay for multiple accounts in order to achieve their personal goals… i think you would be quite surprised at what some people spend their money on.

I’m a little taken aback by this one… Is the prestige system perfect?.. No…
But it quite literally already is in the hands of the community as it stands in it’s current state… want an existing city to be the capital? Help them by helping them build or crafting or gathering thus adding to their overall prestige in one form or another… Don’t like a current capitol? Rally the people and build a bigger and better one that has more prestige, or help another existing city take the lead.

I really wish i had caught this earlier… i’m too tired scroll back up and alter or add this quote to my response of the 4th time i quote you in this post… but you contradicted yourself here.

I apologize if any of what i said in this has come off as rude or dismissive of your idea… It is not my intention at all… I’m just trying to understand why you would trade out a system that you say is easily manipulated for another one that is just as (if not more) easy to manipulate?

Thanks for explaining you were not trying to be dismissive. Based on your response where you said you didn’t want a back and forth but still broke apart my post into multiple sections and countered each one certainly came off more like one trying to do that. I have no issue explaining myself if you are trying to understand my views.

People can upgrade their account for plot bonuses and other things via - http://playboundless.com/#support There are threads on how to do it correctly if people are interested after already purchasing the game. Because of this option that is why I am very opposed to parts of the game that define stuff around plots, etc. It allows an advantage in the game which has outside influence and isn’t fair to everyone. I have no problem with the plot bonuses and almost sent in the $5,000 for more plots because I am a builder by nature, but that is also why I am very against prestige due to the plot link.

Of course the prestige system is a bit more complicated than just placing high prestige blocks. A recent patch put in some things that looks at diversity and other stuff. In any event, the overall point is very clear – any system or algorithm that is designed can be reversed engineered and there are people that will take the time to try to beat that system. Right now gems and other things are high value over the previous “Gleam” regime we had. Once people figure out the diversity they will start adding to their builds to meet that need. Then a new patch comes out with some tweaks and rinse and repeat trying to take advantage of that system. The problem is the model of design and you can’t fix that unless you do a different model. Personally, I just don’t agree that a system like that is best for figuring out a capital or ranking because of the inherent base issue with it.

I didn’t understand your context of “builder” and honestly was only meaning that a person can put a plot and build something on it for the capital example, not that they were a true builder or anything. That model of capital ranking relies on participation of an account for that. That is much harder to achieve because it requires a person to choose to put their account plots there.

A voting system gives choice and no only can make another person do something they don’t want to. So even if it is a popularity context on “nicest person,” “best build,” “ugliest build”, etc… a person can still choose where they place their vote based on their own value system and decisions. That gives each person some power in the decision versus a prestige system where they only people that have the power are 1) developers who design the system 2) those that try to use the system to achieve the top ranking. So only those participating in that “system” get the reward but everyone is affected by it. There are many people who want to participate to decide a capital but do not have time to help it or build their own to get ranking. So you are leaving people out of it which is kind of sad.

In regards to your response on my “community” comment, what you are talking about is people “choosing” and “voting” to decide the capital. Instead of them doing it with their “vote” they do it with work on the “prestige” system. Helping where they want the city to be on top. So there is no difference except the underlying design of one requiring more effort than the other as well as time. A voting system is easier because not everyone can put physical effort into the game at the same level but still do support it or are a major part of the community. A person could still work on their own builds and stuff, have real life time, and still give back by selecting the capital. A prestige system like that requires people to spend more time in game to meet everything. Something that isn’t always easy and not fair to everyone.

I didn’t contradict myself when I said voting contains popularity because I didn’t infer it would not contain popularity. Of course it does because you are adding up the votes to see what is most popular on whatever the “context” of the vote is. You cannot rally have zero bias and other stuff in a vote because voting is usually based on a persons perception and what they want. That is why is better than prestige because people will vote for whatever they like or want. It empowers everyone which is good. A zero bias voting system can exist but only in a design based on factors (like prestige) that can still be manipulated or taken advantage of and that really isn’t voting.

As to the comments about people and money. No one can control what people will spend money on. To get the game they would have to use different names, different credit cards, etc or go through many more real life hoops to try to tweak the vote in their way. And if that ever got out I have a feeling people wouldn’t vote for that person. In a prestige system this can happen as well because I could just pay others to do the work and build larger prestige builds for me. So the “real world money” issue is viable in all models. The idea is NOT to worry about that versus IN GAME dynamics which are more important and having a system that makes people want to participate and feel their voice has some sort of say.

There were plenty of threads where people shared why they felt the prestige system wasn’t great, but the developers made their decision to use this model. I think they probably won’t put much effort into revamping it due to many other things needing to happen for 1.0. I’m glad they have adjusted the algorithm but like I said the issues will still pop up in some ways because of the model. Due to this I don’t try to get at the top of the list for builds or get in prestige wars for capital status. What is sad is income will be linked to that so it will just compound the problems in this game.

1 Like