Shops in general and the economy- edited: new train of thought

economy
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#1

If the economy is defined by the dev’s as

"Existing for those who do not feel like crafting or gathering it themselves, a sheer convenience, and Not the staple for Boundless to exist or succeed."

Would there be any debates on if the economy is broke or bad?

I’ve heard an idea thrown out there and have meditated on it profusely. I personally feel it would solve most, but not all of the complaints. The problem I feel exist in large, is that “boundless” freedoms might be to boundless in all areas. There may have to be a couple boundaries installed. Before immediately replying to this thread. Think about it for a while. Any changes that could help, even though not perfect are better than no changes. Please read all of the below ideas before having a instant reply.

The solution I’ve heard: Every item crafted in the game already gets tagged with the name of the crafter. Though not always showing up.This creates a solution. Only the crafter of the item can sell it. This would stop the buying and reselling of crafted items and the absent of a bottom floor price. True crafters will never undercut themselves to the point of going in the hole. It still leaves economy open for higher prices, especially if your goods are better than another’s. Also gathered items have no tags. So total freedom to gain materials or sell materials can still exist. Forging equipment also removes the existing crafters tag and replaces it with the forger’s because it is by far not the same tool anymore. This protects the market for basic crafters and leaves the market open for forger’s.

Once ones beacon has expired, all the items within that beacon lose their crafters tag. This allows for a nice free treasure for whoever finds it. And those items without tags can be sold. Only when tags are absent like in this case can someone take advantage of selling someone else’s crafted items.


#2

This sounds very restrictive IMO and if people couldn’t give items to noobs, friends, resell items they don’t need/want, the economy would die a painful death. I’m ok with tagging everything with the creator’s name, but that should be it. No MMO prevents players from buying/selling/trading/flipping items.

I don’t believe restricting trade will help the economy.


#3

I do flipping on daily basis, it’s give players a way to play where we go out and explore and check multiple shop to buy and resell.


#4

Your heart’s in the right place, but for some this is their playstyle.


#5

I’m not sure restricting sales in this way is the answer. Unfortunately I don’t have an alternative answer either.

I also think this creates far too many edge cases…

  • What about alts that craft items, which are then sold by another character on the same account (because that character has the tax epic)?
  • What about groups of players that jointly run shops?
  • What about shops that are split over several different characters beacons (whether on the same account or more)?
  • Would you be able to smart-stack crafted items if they’re crafted by different players (as they are currently)?
    – if so, how are these addressed when placed into a selling plinth?
    – If not, that’s going to create an inventory nightmare.

These are just the ones off the top of my head, so there may well be more.


#6

Does sound good in theory. But as @majorvex stated, it would be more harmful in other areas. I was given a very expensive tool that I still have on my shelf waiting for when I can go to a level 5 planet, I promised to not use it till then. Have yet to visit one, but the person would not have been able to gift iy to me and I would not have the hammer to use when I can go gem mining.
I traded some copper for some silver tools and bars that I could not have gotten with the restrictions mentioned.

I keep three smart stacks at all times of my tools and weapons and have given sets of tools and a weapon to a player who was in dire need, that would have stopped that from happening.
my son makes gold fists and slingbows and also gold tools has given some to me, as all I can make are the Explorer’s fists and just now am able to make silver tools and weapons.

Putting creators names on tools and weapons is a great idea and needs to be there and it would be nice if both creator and the forger’s name could be there, but they do deserve to have recognition for their work.

Many crafters do undercut themselves when they give tools away to help new players, as gifts to friends or even in trade when they could sell it for more but prefer to break even when they trade so they don’t have to do the mining or other work for the needed items.

For me, what I have seen as a problem is when request baskets are set out with giving low prices and selling those items for a high price. Example is the shop owner wants to give two coins for sap but charges 20coins for sap.
or someone announces they are selling items real cheap and off goes a greedy jerk to buy them up so they can resale them for a higher price. But there is no stopping that from happening, sadly.

Good concept, but the actual working would, in my opinion, not be helpful to the players overall.


#7

You guys have made very good points.

The last thing I want is a AH. I like shops. I was a moderator in RoboCraft. They created a market for all the cool creations of the players to be sold to others. Players with good builds made a ton of money until ppl simply reloaded the items as their own and the economy 100% went into the drain. The developers then added a crafter tag to every item, and the economy actually became perfect other than players creating giant penises and stuff that we had to flag all the time. It honestly fixed the market.

I tried to think of the worse negative effects it had, and it just never outweighed the good it brought. Right now we have another version of Amazon or Ebay.

Players could still buy and resell materials like they do now. I mean all crafters sell their stuff, so it shouldn’t really affect anyone else other than the players trying to resell your stuff in a way that crashes or affects the market in very negative ways. I know many of us like the idea of finding a huge sell and gaining the profit of reselling at market value. But at the same time if that’s what 99% of players are doing it is instant death and no recovery for a 100% free market like Boundless. As I personally hate the idea of restriction , at the same time I think we may have to have some.

What else could you guys think of that would make this kind of idea work. It needs more details. Accounts should share all beacon privileges to alts without having to tell the beacon who your alt is. Why on earth would I not want my own alt to access a plot. Therefore all crafted tagged items under an account can be used or sold by alts. If your in a market with multiple people, why don’t you have your own stand anyway?

We can’t say we want or need changes without changes.

@Janna55 If someone gives you tools you desperately needed, why or how does that affect this topic? You obviously are not going out and tripling the price and selling it. If you forge it at all you gain the tag completely outright.


#8

I don’t see an issue with people buying/selling/trading/reselling items. The player base is way too small right now to start restricting things like that. There really is no economy to speak of, IMO. The game needs more content, more things to spend coin on, more ways to earn coin (or other currency) before an economy can start taking shape. Right now you have noobs trying to sell copper axes for 1000 coins, and then some lvl 50+ players selling coils for 500 coin +/-. That’s just the way it is for now. :woman_shrugging:

Since there is no built-in market or exchange, ppl have to guess as to what they should sell things for. No one knows.


#9

Your post goes that only the crafter of the item can sell it. That to me means that John Doe who crafted the hammer should be the only one who can sell it. I could not then resell it, even if I wanted to.
I could trade it (I would not do that), or give it away (I would do that if I can’t ever use it). I am going that in setting it up that way you limit the ability of sharing tools and weapons from those who have the means to make high quality items from giving them away.
it’s late, I’m tired and probably not thinking clear. Way past my bedtime. I’m off to bed.


#10

What problem with the economy is this solving exactly?

Is this going to make sure I sell more? That people have coin to buy things?

How is this going to solve the low sales and people complaining they don’t have coin to buy items?


#11

I understand where you come from, but I’d have to agree that this doesn’t seem like a good fit for the ?issues people are bringing up… also I’m not 100% sure which specific issue this would target and/ or how it would help. I think people buying up others products and then trying to resell at a lower price will hurt the reseller more than it hurts the economy.

The 2 points I’ve seen raised here are “I’m not selling” and “i cant buy”. Both of these (i think) come mainly from 2 places- the ability of any player to gather / make any item AND players being more willing to spend time doing so rather than coin.

I’ve previously pointed out that having more, predictable sources of income would incentivise me into spending more freely, as I could conceivably get coin from doing what i like to pay for what i rather wouldn’t be doing.

Since, I’ve seen many people stating that more content would solve this issue - and after much thought i have to agree it would help. Not saying its the holy grail the economy needs, but as items expand, so will the amount of time needed to be totally self sufficient (assuming this magical “content” includes items with wear & tear).

Combining the above two ideas, i think sustainable coin generation and an unreasonably large amount of items to craft / create / use will eventually mean thats it isnt feasible to DIY and go it all solo all the time, and after all thats what trade was made for (irl).


Boundless Economics - Monetary Velocity and You
#12

Okay, A new direction for everyone to ponder. Scratch my entire original idea for the moment. It only addresses one piece of one problem and cannot in effect define a bigger problem. I was wrong. A single problem can be identified without debate however. Sales are really low universally wide in Boundless. There are many other problems many can think of. I am trying to analyze the economy only in this thread. There is also many ideas tied to lower sales like lower player base. But for the existing ones at least , lets break it down a little.

1st Lets try this.
Known Base facts:
1.Everyone can eventually make anything they need or want.
2.Everyone can sell if they desire.
3.Everyone can gather, and accumulate stuff, and coin.
4.Coins are not exactly 100% needed to gain 1-3. Proven by thousands like myself who have everything just by playing the game. Though you can go into debt by excessive warping.

5.If a player wants to build portals, he may need to join hunts, in order to make enough oort to maintain a portal. It may be hard to make enough oort by solo hunting alone for some destinations. Thus killing the solo hermit play style for just this portion of the game. Or joining hunts to gather higher numbers of animal resources more quickly as a convenience.

6.Everyone can partake in footfall if they desire allowing other players to come onto their plots. After all, hermits who live in the wilderness often don’t claim taxes anyway. So some do not ever see footfall.

7.The economy exist in this style or business model, for those who do not want or desire or have the time for doing either 1 or 2 or 3. Thus making coins something used, to avoid having to do either 1 or 2 or 3. The need to use coin to open a warp and jumping home seems to be the constant no way around the permanent need for coin. Everything else is conveniences.


The main re-occurring solutions I’ve heard:
A) “Increasing footfall coin will fix the economy.” or “Players need more coins.” - I feel with number 3 and 4, it may not. (lets ignore footfall ideas for the moment) I will say I do go broke all the time and it makes me not go out and buy other crafters items, and does force me to go make it myself. However, in ALL mmos it’s always cheaper to make it yourself as opposed to buying it. So deeper thought may need to be put here as opposed to why it may not be working in Boundless as well. I do remember chancing an account ban in my old WoW days and buying gold. All because of number 7 here. I didn’t want to grind.

In fact, lets think more a sec here. If we had more coin available, yes we would be buying tons of stuff. (I would be) But it’s a lack of coin to obtain what we desire that makes us go out and work to make the that coin, in economics 101. So is there possibly a balance issue here? There is most definitely a huge decline of crafters buying materials. Most request baskets are empty, period. I use to go out and make a 100k easily selling stuff. But know it takes 4 hours and 15 planets to find the baskets to sell that much. So what came first here, the lack of coin or the lack of crafters?

B) “Giving us more stuff to craft might fix the economy.” It seems the more stuff we have the more stuff simply sits in shops. With number 1-3 in play, all your items in a shop is only there for those who don’t want to do one of the 1-3. Thus creating number 7.

My personal thought is that number 7 would need to be accepted. If it is, then there is no economic problem, and everyone has to accept that Boundless is not a economic simulator. This is not what the majority wants however. I think the bigger issue is involving parts of A) above.

A different idea: Maybe in this games evolution increasing players coin through higher coin rewards for the harder objectives/feats. After all when we pay 20k+ for just one hammer that will wear out. Why not have the rewards increased? I think in other mmo’s this is the big difference. They have huge rewards for completing instances and super higher end loot worth 100k’s or millions sometimes. This is where Boundless kinda of stops. We get pretty low rewards considering the cost of tools and buffs to reach those bigger objectives/feats. We are in the hole sometimes by the time we reach a feat. This would change the coin balance, and the added coin would not come from the debated earned footfall.

Also I might add that just merely adding more creatures and more loots doesn’t change the desire of sales, but would increase number of players. I feel that it’s a larger drop of players who all came and saw and moved one within just 5 weeks, once they did everything and saw everything. So a combination of added content of things to do (like most all mmo’s) like boss’s, and more group things and even the evil idea of dailies to increase some coin, could add an increase of players as well. More players with more coin is more people buying. If more people are enable to buy more frivolously, there would be a demand for more crafters again. just personal idea.


#13

As written you could abuse this to whitewash items . Just find a remote area, plop down a campfire and shop stand, wait two hours and voila, the items you bought are now untagged and ready for resale.


#14

very true. but i have scratched that entire idea for now anyway. looking at a broader picture in my last post here.


#15

Yeah, just noticed that, whoops


#16

Honestly, I think a way for coin injection from a source other than footfall or selling materials would be a strong first start. There are way too many shops in Boundless, and too many people looking to sell materials. If you want to drive down the price of goods, you have to farm yourself. This cuts out the gatherers but is a necessary component because it is unaffordable to buy everything.

Feats, objectives, and levels supply coins but not in the quantities needed to be a steady consumer. Having dungeon rewards with a coin component would allow those that appreciate that gameplay type to ability to rely more heavily on consuming goods versus crafting. This would in turn provide a separate buying pool for crafters and allow for them to buy more materials.


#17

I agree. Rewards need to be more coin related than loot related. I more and more am believing there is a imbalance to coin reward/earned. Even when you sell everything for 1 coin, it’s hard to justify buying when you only have 20-50k to your name most of the time. No one buys all your resources that you just went and blew 3 hammers to get all those stacks of. So the desire to buy has dropped and the forced desire to go and grind for oneself has increased. However if coin was more easily obtained, I would be buying more materials, and crafting more specific items. but right now I am having to craft such a huge variety of things myself, because no way could I buy that many ingredients and get a return. For example, Even if one sells iron at the going rate of 6c each, one spends about the same amount in tools and buffs as the return to selling it to that basket. In the end you end up spending hundreds of hours and never really got ahead. Just kinda even. So it kills desire.

It really feels like everything cost more than there is coin for. Like forging for example. A forger cannot in most cases like myself go out and buy all the forging mats that would make great forged items. As we speak I am out trying to gather beans to make my liquids. But with low sales I cannot afford to buy the beans and hope to get a return on forged tools.

I am starting to get more coin stocked up, because I a not playing everyday anymore, and using up my tools, and just banking footfall. This shows again an imbalance of coin. If by playing hard, doesn’t make me money anymore, to the wear on my stuff and lack of places to sell to, it’s an imbalance. It forces again number 7 , and to go out and do everything myself. Which is possible. But not for everyone.

Another danger is , if the coin rewards were higher, would everyone just increase their prices thus 100% nullifying the increased coin rewards? If the answer is yes, then these may not either be the solution or real problem.


#18

The only way for a shop/seller to differentiate themselves in this game is by price and location. I think it would be very hard to reverse the pricing we see now unless there was a significant reduction in available raw materials.

I don’t craft to sell in a shop, so maintaining my personal crafting is much easier with minimal purchases from shops. I generally play because I like gathering whether that means hunts, mining, surface resources, or being a lumberjack.

The entry into Boundless is more friendly to new players in that their Feat, leveling and objective coins go further. However, when that stream turns to a trickle, they need to be more self sufficient or the game starts to lose its luster and econ ok my arguments arise.


#19

Very true. It’s starting to come down to some key elements missing in content that every other mmo has that keeps players around longer, or a wider variety of players. James thread on New Content, has a lot of good ideas there. With just a few added contents, this game could have triple the player base, like bosses for instance. People want something to Conquer other than the best house built. So many people have become bored with the crafting and 1 meteor boundless calls events, that they are trying out other games waiting to see what is added here.

Every time something new is added the servers go nutz. To me this proves everyone loves this game and are just hungry.


#20

To fix the economy we currently really only need two things: item sink and a stable inflation.

Make items soulbound WHEN USED (allows for people to sell any excess they might have bought but not machinery they have used) or make them degrade over time beyond repair. This will create item sink, basically same way irl works.

We need a) more money in the game, b) smaller currency than 1c (like world of warcraft gold, silver, copper). Currently we have far too many items that are priced 1c even tho in reality they should be 0.2c or 0.5 etc. Having more coin in the game with right item sinks would increase ever items prices, but everyone would be richer so prices would truly be according to supply and demand. How we would get more money into the game without changing too much, I do not know, but perhaps selling to npc vendors could fix that. After this, developers should monitor how much cash comes out and in of the game, for a stable inflation.

People have their ideas of the perfect economy, but there is a reason some games have a better economy than others, and how some games have fixed their economy with simple solutions (wow has item sink with items being soulbound, vendors and mobs give gold, runescape 3 fixed their 15yo economy by implementing a new skill called invention. Prior to this, the game had no real item sink and more or less every item was at min value. Now the economy is flourishing again.)

I study economics and I gladly debate about this matter, so feel free to confront me about it. :+1: