Testing 249: Melee Weapons, Shields and Local Universes - continued

[Ratchel]

@scrufola

I think it would be better if the game would just unlock most talents at specific levels. Like mass crafting at level 10 and environment protection at 20 and so on. That way you could look forward to a level (yay, something new) instead of getting trapped with analyses paralyses after every level up.

This is something I really think would be good for the progression system. Many skills on just there and feel a burden to put points in.

Atmosphere Protections should come with leveling.

Mass crafting

Portal opening and distance.

I even feel that the grapple, hammer ,shovel and axe chisel and spanner skills should come with leveling, a type of 1-100 system. The more you use that item the higher that skill goes. You gain a level for that type of tool skill from actively using it. I’ve seen games use this type of progression and it is amazing.

[Rydralain]

@Xaldafax

They really should have just scrapped all this and rebuilt things from scratch with a better system that is scalable since this is showing it won’t be.

If they want diminishing returns on skill points but not on cubits, one option would be to keep the current live cost to level and reduce skill point rewards at some point.

1-50: 2 points
51-100: 1 point
101+: Only even levels

It’s harder to communicate to the player, but it doesn’t require divorcing cubits from levels, so it’s cheaper to develop.

[Xaldafax]

So just to round up the basic ideas into maybe something we could try to influence for a change (since they won’t rebuild skill and leveling from scratch) is:

1. lower the current curve (% required) after level 50 to 190. The current curve and XP requirements are too large.
2. break out cubits from the final level reward crate and instead move toward a "every set amount of XP you get a set amount of cubits no matter what level you are at.
3. break out the plots from XP level as well - which could be accomplished if you did #2 above.

Something like this would still make builders happy and allow game progression for skills, etc. Not a perfect system but certainly better than we deal with now. I do expect some balancing to happen at some point across all tasks that we do, but would expect that in a future update because they really want to release something.

Please let me know your thoughts on this because I’d like us to propose these changes to @James in hopes to solve the greater issue we all are seeing.

[scrufola]

Open 100 1 blinksec portals to reach rank 2 of the portal skill, now you can open 2 blinksecs portals. And so on. Who’s the first that can connect Kol Huroo with Lamblis?

[Rydralain]

oh god isn’t there a meme about runescape campfires about this?

This, but with portals

[Nightstar]

@xyberviri

Im reading that these are supposedly “just for solo” because it needs to be balanced?

I’ve seen this statement a couple of times now.

No, this is for the whole game. The changes to the skill tree are due to the additions of new gear as well as (presumably) changes requested over time, not just for “balancing solo worlds”.

@scrufola

Does it make sense that cubits take longer and longer to obtain? Not at all, cubits is a resource needed to play the game. This should be flat from he beginning. There is no “character progression” or anything related to cubits.

I agree with this, and have been chastised by James in the past for mentioning that cubits are tied to character progressions, when he wants to discuss things in terms of character progression and insists it’s not tied to cubits. The link IS real and it would be great if they would just separate that.

This new progression curve is honestly great, IMO. It opens up a lot of room to create things that people are missing, and allow for more variance in ways to advance. The scale doesn’t have to be so compressed, so activities and things like world tier, can be used to scale progression as you advance.

I’m not sure I’m explaining that to the best effect, but some others have mentioned it as well. In a more ‘normal’ MMO (RPG or Sandbox) the things you do progress as you level, and it gets harder and harder to advance. But, as you skill up your focus changes until you hit whatever “end game” is like in that game.

This is all great. But here, we have to worry about cubits. I’m ignoring that, it’s 100% for a long time my opinion that cubits should be broken from avatar/character progression.

If you allot some of your cubits to skill pages early on your ability to multiply those points is amazing. This is a huge boon to gameplay (not just building) and overall character advancement. If it’s not clear to some, as described by James, in the new system at level 50 you will have access to 500 usable skill points.

As you achieve max level (new system) you are using 1795 points worth of skills - where the current system only allows the use of 500 EVER.

So achieving level 50 under the new system allows you to have a character with basically the same skills and abilities as a level 150 under the old system. And the progressions (XP/Cubits) hasn’t changed for the first 50 levels, at this time.

It would be nice if cubits could become a separate issue. Because with that ‘off the table’ the new system/scaling opens up quite a bit of opportunity for the growth of the game.

[Ratchel]

I would even enjoy seeing cooking and other things tied to completing quest.

Such as craft this many of stews to gain access to crafting loafs, craft this many loafs to gain access to crafting pies.

A type of learning system that rewards you with a skill to progress. This would fit with tools, weapons and Grapples. Quest rewarding skills to progress to the next tier of that item.

[Rydralain]

@Nightstar

In a more ‘normal’ MMO (RPG or Sandbox) the things you do progress as you level, and it gets harder and harder to advance. But, as you skill up your focus changes until you hit whatever “end game” is like in that game.

To emphasize this bit, I would see any levelling (in the new system) after 50-75ish to be endgame progression. You have access to everything, but you can level up to consolidate your sheets and do less sheet swapping. It’s horizontal progression at that point, rather than vertical, which is why the high cost to level isn’t a big deal (if you ignore cubits).

[almund]

@Xaldafax

like should the system stop at level 190?

I like game allows me to get xp and levels and it is not stopping like in many games.

Waiting to see more how cubit gain will be balanced, hopefully some sort of leg/etape/milestone inside xp meter of level instead of having awarding those after every level when it requires millions.

To me growing meter to requiring level up seems nice change.

[xyberviri]

@Ratchel

I do this because I enjoy the nature look rather than random buildings. I’m sure others do this as well and this is what you are seeing.

im 50/50 on it, im not too worried because its in a area i go to farm peat, so the ground layer is literally available

@Xaldafax

and instead move toward a "every set amount of XP you get a set amount of cubits no matter what level you are at.

Ooo i like that, consistency is sexy and if i can expect consistent cubit gains apart from leveling my character thats something i can look forward to during those longer stretches of leveling

[RedY3]

Join me bruh @Ratchel

[NerArth]

@Xaldafax

Obviously this is a result of Solo Mode, but I’m almost 100% certain it will hit MMO because of this and likely other content coming.

I don’t see this as obvious and so I don’t quite understand this logic. Why would a non-MMO player want to grind that much XP if they are doing everything on their own? People like to drop in and out of things, after all. With modding a non-MMO player can just change the XP curve anyway (or other aspects of acquiring XP).

@Xaldafax

I’d doubt they want to stop cubits but they might be looking at slowing “planet” growth on public planets. But, that honestly seems stupid because James would know and see that Sovereign’s have spread us out a lot and with Local Universe coming it spreads it even more.

Unless they make changes to sovereigns, sovereign-world players still need to grind XP for plots all the same, don’t they?

[Nightstar]

@Xaldafax

like should the system stop at level 190? Do people max their character? etc…

I think this is fine. The specific level number isn’t important but “maxing your character” is a normal game mechanic and also one we already have.

They’ve more than tripled the range of skill progression here (500 max to 1795 max) and increased the required activity by an even larger amount. What remains to be seen is if they have just increased the time/grind to maxing your level, or if they can fill this new gap with activities people find interesting or rewarding.

It’s just the cubit thing. Even those who prefer other activities to endlessly building need plots to meet their goals for advancement. Workshops, storage, even shops have their plot requirements. Since it’s also the path to cosmetics and character customization (a huge deal in any MMO) a major reduction here hurts the game broadly. IMO.

Some point-by-point:

@Xaldafax

1. lower the current curve (% required) after level 50 to 190. The current curve and XP requirements are too large.

I disagree. We’re in an experience vacuum here regarding the use of terms like “too hard”. The new system actually allows for faster early progression, and extends the ability to grow a single character MUCH further over the long haul.

I’m not saying the figures are correct, I’m just saying it’s very different and too early to make a hard call like this. TBF I’m still ignoring the cubit rate in this statement. This is because:

@Xaldafax

2. break out cubits from the final level reward crate and instead move toward a "every set amount of XP you get a set amount of cubits no matter what level you are at.

I 100% agree with this. Assuming that there will be no change to the use of cubits (they are used for customization, extras, and plots atm) this could be a separate system of advancement, distinct from character levels.

@Xaldafax

3. break out the plots from XP level as well - which could be accomplished if you did #2 above.

As you note, point 2 is one way of addressing this. Right now, cubits and character progression are tied to the same commodity, experience points. Breaking this link allows for greater flexibility in both areas. Separating plots from cubits allows for further flexibility.

We could have a hybrid system. Drop some plot coffers during progression, besides the level coffers that currently include the cubits. Then still allow cubits to purchase additional plots, cosmetics, or other customizations.

[NerArth]

You specifically may already know this @Nightstar but it got me remembering; in pre-release cubits weren’t a thing and before the skill system was added there was a rudimentary system that whenever you did things (didn’t matter what) you’d level that set of activity up and gain plots for each level gained from that activity.

I do have an old screenshot showing this system but I can’t retrieve it just at the moment.

---

My point is that this seems like it was a fairer approach to gaining plots overall, as everyone could earn them at an arguably more easily balanced rate by simply engaging in their favoured activities. True, I don’t know the obfuscated numbers behind those pre-skill-system level gains. But if XP, cubits and plots don’t get separated however, not much will ever change, I suppose.

As someone else much earlier in the thread mentioned something about simply earning plots by spending time playing the game; I think that this would align better with such an idea versus the existing system that compounds XP, plots and cubits all together, which ultimately only serves to favour “flavour of the month” methods of gaining XP – sure, it used to be mass rock crafting but most XP gains still come primarily from mining and crafting, and only certain types of crafting too, not all.

I happen to favour mining as a playstyle so it happens to favour me but I’ve thought about it a lot; whenever I do plant gathering or hunting, those activities just don’t feel rewarding in terms of XP to me. And building only does if you use high-end blocks, which are costly to make or buy, depending on your preferences.

The reality seems to me that the existing XP system could be balanced so that all types of players could earn XP at fair rates in terms of “XP/hour” regardless of activity. It’s just that for some reason this has been neglected or requires too much play-testing on the dev-side, I don’t know what it is that’s at fault really. People have abused some XP systems, but they can’t have been the majority of players, so I don’t think that’s good justification, either.

[Kokuma]

@Nightstar

We could have a hybrid system. Drop some plot coffers during progression, besides the level coffers that currently include the cubits

This was what i was thinking as well. Not necessarily plot coffers, but coffers with cubit rewards for cosmetics/plots/whatever.

One idea would be the feats. Lets be honest, you sometimes get exp rewards for achieving a feat that most people don’t care about. Just exp. So it becomes something that is a nice bonus but otherwise not really needed, and nobody really goes after doing feats.

Let me ask you people, who here actually has achieved this feat of spending 1k skill points on one character? Which isn’t even correct as epic skills only count as 1 instead of 5 despite using 5 skill points. Only reason i have these on my characters are cause I abused the free skill page wipes given before lv20, sitting there for like half an hour doing nothing but spending points and wiping them over and over for that umbris coffer when I first started out, as back then as a newbie, you’re hurting for levels. Now? Eh, exp is meh.(which will change with the update)

Instead of ‘here, have some extra exp for achieving something’ have them give cubit rewards. People would actually go after doing feats, and it will feel like an achievement as well as getting rewarded as such.

Sure, this isn’t enough as an alternative sole method for gaining cubits (unless the devs add a LOT more feats) but it can be one of them. Add a few more methods that reward you with cubits (like somebody mentioned, giving cubits for playtime) and that would seem a lot more fairer.

[DKPuncherello]

@NerArth

the existing XP system could be balanced so that all types of players could earn XP at fair rates in terms of “XP/hour” regardless of activity.

Exactly! It would be so much better.

[DKPuncherello]

@Ratchel

come with leveling.

I agree roughly half of the skills should come with leveling. Thinks like mass craft, portal/warp, atmo, jump in particular.

Regarding the cubits, I already think they are too stingy. I also agree the plot system should reward building up and down somehow. I’ve suggested having it take half a plot to plot up or down before. In any case, I think you should get at least the same number of plots under the new system as before.

Maybe decouple cubits and levels? Every 40,000xp you get 30 cubits (I think that’s the level 50 rate) regardless of level, with a separate progress bar below level XP.

[james]

The current XP + Cubit progression is simply a continuation of the functions that were already in the game. We’re aware that the progression changes the effort-reward ratio beyond Lvl 50 because the XP progression is exponential and the cubits progression is linear, where as previously they were constant. But we’ve released it as-is to get some feedback about generating + running Local Universes and the melee weapons + shields.

[DKPuncherello]

So… don’t worry about the XP thing?

[Ratchel]

I wouldn’t assume that.