Water, Fluid System, Farming and Weather

Agreed - I stated the same thing in my post, with a possible solution to transportable water …

So you can only really move water from container to container. Pipes would also work as well, but would rely on the use of beacons to protect the piped area. Which leads me to your following statements …

If you’re far enough away to not be griefed, you will need to use a lot of beacons just to protect pipes.

It also raises the question… why should people have to compromise their builds, or forego building a farm close to water (if/when farming is introduced after initial release). You’ll always get people that want to build a nice waterfront property, or underground (below water source level), or just with the fore-thought that water (or lava even) may play a bigger role in a future update.

Anti-griefing measures, in my opinion, should not just be reliant on players having to some how know that they shouldn’t build so close to a water or lava source as someone else might grief them.

I think the removal of the ability to create a new water source is a step in the right direction, as this will negate the most immediate threat of someone just dumping water/lava around your beacon. The only other issue remains with water/lava diversion - which has potential to be a drive-by issue, that would eventually be resolved by either plugging the divert yourself, or waiting for world regen to fix it.

It only really becomes a permanent issue if the griefer beacons the actual diverted source. Which may just mean that they were unaware that their water/lava diversion had caused issue elsewhere.

The current mechanism is only a placeholder as flowing water has not be converted to the C++ build as yet…[quote=“james, post:1, topic:4247”]
Next week, we will be making a small update to release some of the final C++ porting features, such as making fluids flow and creatures dropping items.
[/quote]

Your trench idea would prevent griefing damage to your build, but I wouldn’t want to see everyone needing to dig a trench around their builds to protect it. Although that may be the only plausible solution to preventing diverted sources.

I’m still in favour of allowing water/lava to flow through beacons as people will want this as it’s an additional creative resource, and it removes the less than ideal invisible barrier from the game. I don’t think preventing it from flowing through beacons will stop griefing either (although it will prevent actual damage to your build), as your could still potentially surround someones beacon with a wall of water/lava.

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Fluids flowing through beacons… scares me a bit.

Example scenario:

Someone places some water (or diverts some water) into your beacon. Those changes outside the beacon will be regenerated… meanwhile your beacon has random water inside of it that isn’t even connected to any source blocks anymore since the beacon is not regenerated.

conversely, you place water inside your beacon, and it flows outside of the beacon. The world regen will regenerate away the water that flew outside the beacon, but the water in your beacon keeps flowing outside again…

:scream:

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Wouldn’t the water just go away when the source is cut off? Or what do you have in mind for future water physics?

But yea the second point was something I wondered too. But wouldn’t the regeneration be so slow that you’d hardly notice the water disappearing and flowing out of the beacon again?

Regeneration cannot be allowed trigger world simulation to occur, as it is utterly trivial to end up with an infinite loop of water flowing/regnerating/flowing/regenerating etc.

So stop thinking about “placeable” water. It can potentially cause too much problems. And as you maybe read in my former posts, just decorative reasons would justify placeable water.

Or do you still want to be able to place fluids somewhere by a certain reason?
And diverted water should not be the problem. Just build far enough from water or higher then the source block / lake / river / sea.

Assuming the water can just run 7 blocks away from it’s source, there is not even a problem with beaconing too long ways of pipes. One beacon of the current size would already make it to have you far enough.

@Stretchious I can understand your worries about substractions in creative possibilities. But this is better then having bugs by infinite loops…

So what is your approach to solve that problem?
Maybe make flowing water not regenerate if it would dissappaer and only if a block would replace it?
That would be the easiest solution I could think of without a drawback. Except for not full regeneration outside of beacons because flowing water would not always regenerate.
Tricky problem…

@Smoothy The problem luca is talking about, is that if you let flowing water from inside a beacon regenerate outside of it then you’d have a constant loop of disappearing and reflowing water.

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The issue is, it doesn’t even need to be placed fluids .

If you divert fluids and then beacon it… the diverted route that leaves your beacon, is not the original path it would have taken, so world regen would still be in a state of flow/regen as @lucadeltodecso stated.

I get the feeling that this is not going to be solvable in a way that everyone will like - even though that way will be necessary.

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I also think that allowing fluids to pass through beacons is a major no-go (without even considering the technical issues @lucadeltodecso mentioned, there are just way too many ways to abuse and grief with such a system)

So imo “blocking” beacons with a smart subset of rules would be the only suitable solution for that.

Rule 1: Stationary fluids remain stationary
In the moment you place a beacon any fluids inside of it should become completely independent from fluids outside the beacon (and vice versa) which means that following 3 situations would be possible:

Water inside & outside of the beacon | Water outside the beacon but not inside | Water inside but not outside
With pink as representation for beaconed area
Please ignore the glass

While maybe allowing some strange looking builds this rule would prevent any form of fluid griefing while also enabling a lot of awesome builds like :

Or simple entrances to underwater builds.


Subrules: Stream annihilation and source generation.
I don´t know how doable this is but it would be a supposedly simple way to allow beacons along rivers and waterfalls while keeping rule 1 intact

I used glass to represent beaconed space

According to rule 1 placing a beacon in the path of the waterfall in picture 1 would lead to the waterfall of picture 2.
Adding two (supposedly simple) subrules could prevent such a behavior:

  1. Stream annihilation: If a stream of fluid has contact to the surface of a beacon it gets annihilated instead of being derived (red areas in picture 3).
  2. Source generation: If a beacon detects that it has to annihilate a stream of fluid it automatically generates a source of the fluid on the corresponding adjacent block. (green areas in picture 3)
    This rule should only apply to natural fluid streams (streams that would also be present in a fully regenerated world)
    Source blocks that are generated due to this rule should be added to the “natural” state of a world (Don’t decay due to world regeneration & regenerate if they are removed)
    This rule would obviously only be checked once in the moment the beacon is placed.

These rules would not only prevent people from griefing your beaconed property but also prevent people from altering large areas of a world by simply beaconing & removing water sources (which is another big issue with water manipulation that hasn´t been mentioned yet afaik).
E.g.:Beaconing the head of a waterfall and blocking the water source to remove the entire waterfall (and the potentially following river) from the world would be impossible since your beacon would automatically generate a new source directly where your beacon ends. So a potential griefer that wants to drain the builds of several players could only drain his 8x8x8 plot(s).

Hopefully this was explained in a somewhat understandable way :sweat_smile:


And last but no least:

'#teamslime

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Your idea could still alter the flow of naturally generated water though which would cause the before mentioned problem to appear. I think at least…


Again I wonder if it would be possible to change a fluid type as soon as it enters or leaves a beacon so it becomes non destructive.

Can it? I don’t think it can alter the flow. Just inside the beacon it could, but no outside, if I understand the logic right.

  1. is the natural flow. you beacon the area on it’s corner, so you have a water source in your beacon.
    Even if you flood your complete beacon with water 2), it should now come out at places where “naturally” no water exist.

No it would not be possible (sorry, maybe I explained it poorly) but my suggested rule-set would allow that, independent of what you do inside your beacon, the fluid stream in the rest of the world would stay the same. So if you place a beacon along a river/waterfall and remove/block all fluids inside of it would still look like this:

Just with a new independent source at the bottom and a vanishing water stream on the top instead of actual portals :smile:

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@Smoothy @Vastar

Ah sorry I interpretted it as it would appear on the opposing site of where it is intering. Which could move the water in strange way.

I think you would also need to consider what would happen if the beacon was subsequently removed.

If you had flooded your beacon with water - or at least diverted in a non natural way - what happens to those water blocks when the beacon is removed … would they just disappear?

Also, if the beacon is removed, you’d need to revert the water source block at the bottom of the beacon back to normal flowing water.


Even though it would solve the issues, I’m not sure I like it, purely as it seems like the water just magically disappears and reappears. I’m not sure if there’s a better solution though - if there is, I don’t have an answer for it! :wink:

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Well I´d say that they´d just regenerate like anything else that isn´t beaconed.

Exactly my thoughts while writing this.
But I´d take strange interrupted water streams over trolls at the head of each waterfall any day.
Just imagine the frustration that would occur if you build a nice house in the middle of a waterfall just to see a troll blocking the stream above you and beaconing it…

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Fluids cant pas trough my “forcefields” XD
but the forcefield make water to steam and lava to stone,when the fluids touch them
and it lost health in this process… but we have beacons i forgot :stuck_out_tongue:

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My opinion about water pumps, generators and pipes is, that generally it is a great idea. Generally. Which is not actually great to the extend that water becomes an abstract figure in the game with pipes being used. Water only would be visible in a form of texture on a transparent pipe. On a closed pipe, you would not even be able to visually reconstruct the water flow, and the amount of water flowing, and the speed at which it happens.
Assumed you build a pipe out of metal blocks which are simply aligned in a straight line with one block attached to the previous, you’d have a very simple way of connecting two ponds or rivers or a water source to your farming field. Again it would be fun and (almost too) easy but abstract.
If you could actually build a pipe’s surrounding, which means the hull of a pipe - and then let water run through, I’d find it far mor challenging to canalise water and pump it somewhere. It also would fit much better into the grid system the graphic engine provides.
For example: We have stone slabs for walls. They are half the thickness of a brick block. If you’d use the slabs to build a pipe element, it would not become too thick in diameter. Also you’d be able to adjust how broad you’d want the pipe to be. And you’d actually have a pipe hull then. You’d actually be able to ‘swim’ inside of a pipe. Adjust the diameter and therefore the amount of water running through. Place a pump at a strategic point of your pipe and adjust the pump’s strenght and at this device. You could swim through pipe systems or even use it a transport system for items or chars with a strong water flow combined to it. Build a pipe out ot glass slabs, or wood slabs, stone or whatever material is provided in a world.

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I like the idea, but then it’s hard with the physic rules i described (water pressure / energy).
It’s matter of what dev’s want to implement.

I don’t think your idea is trivial to realize. Maybe it’s possible in future somewhen…

the idea of “glass pipes” sounds amazing. The imagination to see how the pump is sucking the water in and pushing out sounds amazin or seeing the turbine flooded. Of course you probably will just be able to see something running if the system (pump +pipes + water connection) is constructed. Same with the generator. Cause it would not make sense seeing the water entering and no water leaving the pipe :wink:

However, glass pipes would be nice.

A channel or tunnel to slide in sounds complicated, especially when you want to connect it with a one-block-big pump.

But I guess you can already guess, how complicated it is to use fluids in any way (as you saw all the discussions above)…

I think there are other, easier ways to create transport systems. I would not use an artificial water system in the first place…

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Of course, a water canal for transportation would take up an enormous amount of time to build and even sort of architectural plans would be necessary. And in relation to expenditure for Wonderstruck … well tiny team. Not intending to squish them to mash by throwing out utopian (for this knd of project) ideas.
I’m just a big fan of immediately recognizable game mechanics. It is not as practical as having stats and numbers instead, but it has an appeal of seeing - realizing - thinking - and acting according to it. It goes hand in hand. It’s like a visual puzzle, in which you can estimate an outcome, rather than precisely defining it via parameter. That’s what creates the players saying ‘it feels like this, it feels like that’. Or at least one important part. Everyone prefers different.
But yes, I think I get your point. Let’s see what the devolopers have in mind and hope for further surprises.

Personally I like option 3. A more realistic movement for water using channels to move water. I do like the idea of being able to pump water via pipes but that also would need restrictions to keep people from piping water hundreds or thousands of blocks away and ruining landscapes with water pipes. Ark survival evolved is a great example of water pipes that are ugly and run all over.

Possibly giving people the option to build the water pipes 1 block depth below ground and a limit to how far a pump can push water through the pipes is a decent start. I would hate to see beautiful landscapes molested with pipes.

Excelent !!! How can we make palaces and castles without water?
In any form, I would be willing to grind un game for water in my builds