Beacon Persistence - Pro-/Con-List and Polls

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This Topic is in response to the devlog Topic “Beacon Persistence”.

Because the original Topic run out of control (~300 Posts in 2 days) i want to start a new Topic with a dedicated Pro-/Con list (on a more “prominet” location than post 288 of ~300) like @Thorbjorn42gbf suggested in the original topic. Furthermore i like to add a new Poll (same reasons as the list) where you can select your favorite options (this will be post #2 in this topic beacuse i can’t edit a post that contains a poll).


The Premise

The main question in the origial Topic is the question if beacons should expire after some time or if they should be permanent and forever. This question was also asked approx. 1 year ago in Survey #4 (result ~70% are for beacon expiration after some time).

Additional reading: There was also a survey 2 months ago about the new beacon system with 57 participants.

Furthermore the devs ask under which circumstances a beacon should expire and what will happen to the items contained in the beacon.


The Rules

To keep this topic clean and dry i need to make some rules (@Thorbjorn42gbf and @Havok40k can you please have look on this now and than).

  1. Post you opinions in a way like “I think”, “I’ve experienced”.
    Don’t claim superiority or universally applicable for your argument (this hurts the intention of this collection)
  2. Don’t start a discussion.
    This should be a “collection” of opinions and view points only.
  3. Don’t cite others opinions.
    If you agree with them, like the post. If you don’t agree (or partially agree) make your own additional answer with a complete explanation (this makes the evaluation easier).
  4. Don’t rely on numbers.
    If someone names a number as an example “4 months” this is most likely not the value he really like to suggest but it’s just a placeholder so don’t argue about the number.

The List (Pro-Con)

This is the collection of players opinions about the “Beacon Persistence” Topic. I’ll add every opinion you mention to this list so it’s easy accessible for everyone without the need to read through ~300 posts (please give me some time for this - i’ve a lot other things to do at the moment).

Note: I’ll add “[]” marks where i need to change your text for better readability. I also try to group all arguments.

I’ll build multiple lists for the different sub-sections (that’s why it’s not a Wiki post):

  1. Beacons should expire or not (Pro-Con List)
  2. Under which circumstances should beacons expire (Collection)
  3. What should happen to the items contained in the beacons (Collection)
  4. Possible solutions to Problems (referenced collection)

Beacons should expire or should be permanent (Pro-Con)

Temporary Beacons

  • Pros
    1. Environment
      2. Would make sure that things not used will return to original state
      2. Would clean up the worlds to only keep active things in play
      2. Would posibly increase the overall ratio of “good” builds
      2. [IN CASE OF FUEL AND SEMI-PERMANENT BEACONS]:
      3. chances are high your valuable work [buldings, landmarks, monuments] will stay in tact
      3. Adventurous players may possibly be able to loot build materials.
      3. No natural regen without player interaction.
    2. Playtime and dedication
      2. [IN CASE OF FUEL] Encourages active play with fuel upkeep (if done right)
    3. Player interactions
      2. Allows players to easily locate active areas instead of sometimes stumbling upon ghost towns if beacons were permanent.
      2. [IN CASE OF ENDER CHEST]: Encourages exploration type play if [chests] are lootable
    4. Building
      2. Would hinder the beforementioned dead city centers
  • Cons
    1. Playtime and dedication
      2. It will be a massive setback in progression in the game.
      3. Upon dying it is fairly likely that you would lose everything in your inventory that isnt equipped or isnt coin. Meaning that the majority of your progress would be stored in your house
      3. It would be insanely punishing towards people who wants to come back into the game
      2. It could very easily start feeling like a chore [to recharge].
    2. Player interactions
      2. [IN CASE OF FUEL]: Due to constant upkeep it would most likely deter a lot of people to use beacons for anything that isnt strictly beneficial
      2. [IN CASE OF SEMI-PERSISTENT]: Even if [a lot] people wants a monument to stay all it would take is one guy to remove the beacon.
    3. Environment
      2. Would possibly remove great landmarks left by other now inactive players

Permanent Beacons

  • Pros
    1. Player interactions
      2. Would encourage using beacons for a greater purpose:
      3. infrastructure
      3. monuments
    2. Playtime and dedication
      2. Would be more forgiving towards casual players
      2. still allowing some leniencey to hardcore players
      2. Returning Players
      3. Would allow for returning players to continue where they left off
      3. Giving more incentive to come back eventually
  • Cons
    1. Building
      2. Would leave good spots taken by people who might not use it anymore
      2. Would possibly result in dead city centers in cases where people make non guild cities
    2. Environment
      2. Would let half finished builds stay forever
    3. Player interactions
      2. Would potentially allow for “griefing” beacons to stay forever (in whatever way they might be)

Circumstances of beacon expiration (Collection)

  1. beacons could be cleared after a certain amount of time [by other players who need the space]
    1. Problem [mentioned in Pro-Con]: landmarks, briges, small easter eggs and so on disaperaing

What should happen to the items in the beacons (Collection) [this assumes that beacons will disappear]

  • [when] beacons disappear the owner should get EVERYTHING from his beacon […]. that way it will allow for people to come back and not having lost everything while at the same time freeing up the space for those who wants to use it.
    • [ADDITION]: Every item should be given back to a chest of redemption of the capital ON THE WORLD THAT YOU ARE IN.
  • Ender-chest type system
    • [PRO]: Encourages exploration type play if these items are lootable.
    • [CON]: Someone may lose all physical item progression (but not skill progression).
  • Capital banking system, unique per world, run by Central Guild

Possible Solutions to Problems

  • [Solution to the “void vault”]: A “compromise” is having the top x% most valuable items or just a set list of items within the beacon be transferred to the void vault.
  • [Solution for recharge]: Every action done by a player in the game recharges their beacon.
    • [ADDITION]: Use coins as fuel (read #54 and [Solution for collection fuel would feel like a chore])
  • [Solution for collection fuel would feel like a chore]: using Coins as the fuel, so people aren’t going out of their way to do extra fuel gathering/processing. It’s just a new coin sink outside of taxes. Could even make beacons draw automatically from your account every X amount of time so it’s not even considered extra work.
  • [Solution for when you forgot to log in]: sending multiple emails when a beacon is about to expire
  • [Solution easter-eggs and “monuments”]: A possible solution could also be to have the beacon decay rate being dependent on other peoples beacons in the proximity of your own. This would lead to hidden beacons in the wilderness being intact almost forever but beacons in a town, where the demand for building space is high, would vanish much faster.
    • [PROBLEMS IN CASE OF FUEL] wouldnt that almost punish people for building next to eachother? [depending on the system - read #7, #8]
  • [Compromise between “looting” and “storing”]: Common mats (ores, food, usable stuff like potions or ammunition) stay in the beacon while ‘epic’ stuff like equipment, advanced weapons etc. vanish into said vault.
    • [CON] Problem to figure out what is “rare” and what is not (especially buildings)
      *[SOLUTION FOR ITEMS] Have the player choose what is most important to them to put inside any such vault (ender chest) [read #16]
      * [CON]:
      1. Would again end up in a whole “Prepare for when you plan to stop playing” scenario.
      2. no looting possible
      * [PROBLEM]: How would it scale? […] would it then allow you to save a percentage of items? would it be possible to cheat the system […]?
      * [PRO]: Would make sure that atleast something stays for looters
    • [CASH-SHOP] Example: Pay x bucks to get the most valuable stuff from your old (no longer existing) beacon back
    • [OPINION] looting “epic” stuff is a necessity
  • [Solution for the ender chest “boost problem”]: all items have a set value [determined by the game] and only up to a certain value can be protected but that threshold grows as the player progresses (read #28)
    • [PRO]:
      1. would make it alot harder to boost it just by dirt
      2. would allow people for some options to what they desire to keep.
  • [Solution if you are not able to login]: Send a mail to the devs [or answer their warning mail] and tell them to freez your account (read #53). The “freez status” expires after the first login.
    • [CON] : Easy to abuse with dummy accounts to allow for different builds (aesthetic, infrastructure) to last forever.
  • [Solution for monuments]: Small buildings (beacons) will expire after some time. For big building (beacons) there will be a “player poll” (in-game) where they can vote if the building should be permanent or should be removed.

Concept #1: Semi-Persistent beacons

The beacon will run with fuel for a given time x. After this time x the beacon will remain till it’s removed by the owner or other players [-> addition to "Circumstances of beacon expiration #1]

  • [PRO]:
    1. Will allow for looting but it isnt just a free loot but rather a choice you have to make if it is worth it
    2. Will allow for those who wants the spots to get them even though they have to pay a bit more
    3. Discourages people from taking beacons just for the sake of taking them
    4. Allows for things such as monuments atleast until someone destroys it or refreshes it
    5. Would allow for people/clans/guilds to find an abandoned city and claim it for themself for a price
    6. Multiple steps with various prices allows for more people to use it for the thing they want to use it for
  • [CON]:
    1. Setting a price […] might reduce the amount of people who are willing to pay for making the game more natural again
    2. Could quickly become a fairly expensive procedure to clear off larger areas.
  • [PROBLEM]: Would […] bemost beneficial to remove it considering there is zero downside to it
    • [SOLUTIONS]: (The owner of the removed beacon receives the worth of his beacons / icons)
      1. Remove beacon and destroy everything inside the beacon for X price (you just want the spot)
      2. Remove the beacon and instantly get everything inside of the area for 2X price (you just want the items)
      3. Obtain the beacon and let everything stay inside of it for 3X price (so if you fall upon a sweet house you can just buy the house as it stands.)
8 Likes

The Polls

Please try to answer every group of question and avoid remarks. The polls will be closed on 16.05.2016 at 16PM (in two weeks).


Beacons should expire or should be permanent

  • yes - they should expire after some time
  • no - they should never expire

0 voters


Circumstances of beacon expiration
(Two options possible eg. they should expire based on playtime and fuel)

  • It’s based on last log-in time
    keep your stuff just by logging in every so often.
  • It’s based on amount of recent time played
    prevents people keeping their stuff just by logging on, they have to actually play.
  • It’s based on gathering / crafting some kind of "beacon fuel"
    which would force players to engage with the game and visit their beacons to keep them maintained.

0 voters


What should happen to the items in the beacons
Two option possible eg. they should be lootable but also be regenerated after some time)

[poll type=multiple min=1 max=2 name=“poll3”]

  • They should be saved automatically in a “void vault” for the owner
    The owner can come back an get all his items.
  • The should be vanished by the regeneration
    No one can profit from the items because the world-regeneration will destroy them before the beacon expires.
  • Items will be lootable for everyone after the beacon expires
    If you find a ghost-town with vanished beacons you can loot everything in it (treasure hunt)[/poll]
10 Likes

Very convenient and a brilliant idea.

Beacons should remain permanent

Pros:
-Would allow for returning players to continue where they left off. Giving more incentive to come back eventually.
-Would encourage using beacons for a greater purpose such as infrastructure and monuments
-Would be more forgiving towards casual players while still allowing some leniencey to hardcore players (for example increased cost per beacon)
-Would allow for great structures which has taken a lot of time to stay for everyone to appreciate and stumble upon even if the person stopped playing

Cons:
-Would leave good spots taken by people who might not use it anymore
-Would let half finished builds stay forever
-Would potentially allow for “griefing” beacons to stay forever (in whatever way they might be)

Temporary beacons.

Pros:
-Would make sure that things not used will return to original state
-Would clean up the worlds to only keep active things in play
-Done well it could potentially be a way to get people back into the game (oh i just want to fill my beacon, oh what is this, oh damn 8 hours gone)

Cons:
-It will be a massive setback in progression in the game. Upon dying it is fairly likely that you would lose everything in your inventory that isnt equipped or isnt coin. Meaning that the majority of your progress would be stored in your house
-Due to constant upkeep it would most likely deter a lot of people to use beacons for anything that isnt strictly beneficial
-It could very easily start feeling like a chore if done in the wrong way (oh i have to go and fill my beacon, i dont even want to play)
-It would be insanely punishing towards people who wants to come back into the game

What happens with items in beacons

if beacons should disappear the owner should get EVERYTHING from his beacon stored in a place where he can go pick it up when coming back. that way it will allow for people to come back and not having lost everything while at the same time freeing up the space for those who wants to use it.

PS: Can you make it a single answer thing only? so you can only pick one.(to make people pick only one so you can get a clear image of what they want THE MOST)

5 Likes

I will post again but 1 thing right now where I would see a “compromise” is having the top x% most valuable items or just a set list of items within the beacon be transferred to the void vault.

Beacons should remain permanent

Pros:

  • It allows leaving tunnels, bridges and small shrines around the place for other players to enjoy

Cons:

  • Would possibly result in dead city centers in cases where people make non guild cities

Temporary beacons

Pros:

  • Would hinder the beforementioned dead city centers
  • Would posibly increase the overall ratio of “good” builds

Cons:

  • Would possibly remove great landmarks left by other now inactive players

Circumstances of beacon expiration

Making so beacons could be cleared after a certain amount of time would possibly do something about the following some of the cons (landmarks, briges, small easter eggs and so on disaperaing)


Would it be possible to note that this is only in case of fueled beacons, as if the game just logs when you last where online and bases it on that this would not necesarily be true ^.^


Also @Heurazio I would suggest adding another lsit called possible solution. That would allow us to look at which kind of problems can be fixed through relatively simple game mechanics.

5 Likes

To add to the pros for temporary beacons:

Allows players to easily locate active areas instead of sometimes stumbling upon ghost towns if beacons were permanent.


To add to the possible solutions:

@Havok40k’s (credit where credit is due) suggestion about how using tools could build up charge automatically. This would be beneficial for miners and whatnot but could be less helpful for other professions so balancing would need to be looked into.

Also just so it’s mentioned, Ollie’s idea of sending multiple emails when a beacon is about to expire.

Finally, the idea of using Coins as the fuel, so people aren’t going out of their way to do extra fuel gathering/processing. It’s just a new coin sink outside of taxes. Could even make beacons draw automatically from your account every X amount of time so it’s not even considered extra work.

Edit: to add to the what should happen to items in the beacon:

Solution (Ender-chest type system)

Solution (Capital banking system, unique per world, run by Central Guild?)

Pro: Encourages exploration type play if these items are lootable.

Con: Someone may lose all physical item progression (but not skill progression).

4 Likes

A possible solution could also be to have the beacon decay rate being dependent on other peoples beacons in the proximity of your own.
This would lead to hidden beacons in the wilderness being intact almost forever but beacons in a town, where the demand for building space is high, would vanish much faster.

This system could easily be implemented in combination with other solutions mentioned for temporary beacons.

3 Likes

Quite nice. just questioning here. But if it isnt time based but instead fuel based. wouldnt that almost punish people for building next to eachother?

2 Likes

If it’s fuel based, I guess it kind of would if you look at it that way. But that really depends on with which systems you combine my suggestion.
You could also say that the prime locations in the city center cost more to upkeep.

4 Likes

If somebody wanted to get an area of land off of somebody, they could get a few friends to place beacons close to the beacon they want to run out? If there are enough people you could bully them out by making the other person not able to maintain the beacon, or to make it not worth while for them.

3 Likes

It kind of said no discussions in this topic… But I’d say this would also fall under balancing. Depending on what the maximum rate is you could as well never bully someone out of business.

I think that’d be considered griefing.

2 Likes

Its a brilliant Con to the suggestion.

1 Like

A possible compromise for the discrepancy between the “void vault” and the “raiding” faction:
Common mats (ores, food, usable stuff like potions or ammunition) stay in the beacon while ‘epic’ stuff like equipment, advanced weapons etc. vanish into said vault.
This would also be a good opportunity for a cashshop item: "Pay x bucks to get the most valuable stuff from your old (no longer existing) beacon back
I also want to mention that I think that preventing players from looting “epic” stuff is a necessity that hasn´t been mentioned yet…

2 Likes

Con:
It would prob be quite a huge deal trying to figure out what is “rare” and what is not. For example if you mention ores. you might not have any weapons but have ores to make weapons. or if you keep your gun what does it matter if your ammo is gone. etc.

2 Likes

Solution: Have the player choose what is most important to them to put inside any such vault (ender chest) but make it so that not every item can be saved. Players get to save what they, not the system, deem most valuable and they get to save that stuff but exploration of expire beacons and scavenging of left-overs is still viable.

2 Likes

Downside to that is that you’d lose all the machines you’ve built (I’m assuming that some machines will be expensive/difficult to build) - or just any block in the build that the player might consider “rare”


If MC is any indication, the things I care about in my “home base” are the rare ores (and their refined versions), misc item drops (e.g. monster loot), tools/weapons/armor, and the machines (crafting stations) I’ve built. It would be frustrating to leave and not have those preserved in some way.

2 Likes

Everthing above this line should be added to the Lists.

@Zouls: unfortunately i don’t know what will happen to the votes if i edit them now. This is not official anyway so the devs need to set-up their own survey if they want reliable informations. Sorry.

3 Likes

@Heurazio i would like to change my suggestion. Every item should be given back to a chest of redemption of the capital ON THE WORLD THAT YOU ARE IN. to keep it local, to avoid it being a universal enderchest for moving items (which i dont believe should be the point) and i assume it would also make it LESS rewarding to try and use it as anything other than a sort of “worst case” scenario feature.

So if you have beacons on 3 different worlds then your stuff will end up in 3 different capitals (it would be a bummer to figure out transport, but again i dont think it should be none punishing for leaving your beacon i just think you should not lose the stuff you have aquired)

Maybe just add it as a seperate suggestion noting the consequences of both choices? This way we have more ideas and veiws on possible ways to go about the problem even if they are not all equal good.

3 Likes