Whoops! It seems I wasn’t able to properly articulate my thoughts. What I meant was they can be a generalist but by sacrificing some skill points (I saw a previous post that they wanted to be good at everything). But for a dedicated player on a profession, they should feel the need for others’ services.
We basically just want to prevent abundance of resources without demand.
I should also add that NO ONE WANTS to be 100% a manufacturer. They’d make an alt for it, level it, respec it as necessary, and throw it in a ditch for 95% of their time that doesn’t involve starting manufacturing jobs. If they could be a manufacturer AND builder with reasonable survival skills to successfully run away from mobs though? That’s reasonable and people would actually play that character for long periods of time.
Similarly, you should probably be able to be a very good hunter AND gatherer OR miner at the same time. If you’re out exploring, killing creatures and picking plants or mining rocks makes sense, but don’t expect to be able to run back home and build nice buildings or manufacture titan-based items. Again, people can play this character for a reasonable period of time without feeling bored or pigeonholed, but still be reliant upon the economy.
Honestly, you can see it. There are going to be two main types of roles in an economy like this. Acquisitor (Hunter/Miner/Gatherer) and Transmuter (Manufacturer/Builder/Alchemist). Ideally both would be needed for raids! (Say what? Yes, but it’s possible! Especially if you can make it so that you need to process the resources acquired therein in order to continue! This would have Transmuters building temp-bases and aid or rez stations and Hunter-Gatherers defending them while using the bases to spearhead further into the Titan.)
Level really has nothing to do with it - it’s an arbitrary number. It’s really down to how you spend your skill points.
There is apparently an issue with the drops - it’s currently not was intended (at least that is what I have been told). I agree, that higher tier worlds need to have better rewards. I believe that the difficulty is around the right level though. The reward is not quite there yet.
Those people were not commenting or quoting my post though … so I can’t reply to those other people.
Yes, I agree - titans should ONLY be for groups to combat IMO. Definitely in no way solo-able. Unlike high level worlds which are solo-able … but with more effort.
You mean like Rift & Blink ores? Agreed.
I think we’ve been arguing from opposite ends of the spectrum here. I’m talking about difficulty on high-tier worlds, not starting ones. I agree with you there that the starting worlds are a little too difficult currently. I believe this may be down to the fact that they still have tier 2 creatures on there (and the fact that they are too OP now) - there should be majority Tier 1 with the rare occasional tier 2 IMO. Starter worlds should be safe havens, with minimal things that can kill you unless you provoke too many of them at once.
I quite like the sound of that - that would be a cool raid mechanic (sounds a little along the lines of overwatch et al).
Sorry that post got much longer than I expected!
Blockquote I think we’ve been arguing from opposite ends of the spectrum here. I’m talking about difficulty on high-tier worlds, not starting ones. I agree with you there that the starting worlds are a little too difficult currently. I believe this may be down to the fact that they still have tier 2 creatures on there (and the fact that they are too OP now) - there should be majority Tier 1 with the rare occasional tier 2 IMO. Starter worlds should be safe havens, with minimal things that can kill you unless you provoke too many of them at once.
So are you saying that unless I group, or until I have the best gear I should only stay on a starter world, because that’s what it sounds like? Currently, it takes so long to level up (get skill points, whatever) that new players will feel no progression. They won’t hang around to make it to the next planet. Could you imagine playing WoW and staying in the first zone for weeks of playing? The starter worlds are not varied enough to justify forcing people to stay on them.
I don’t expect to be kicking-ass by myself on a ring world within hours, but equally I don’t expect to have to spend 40+ hours on the first world and still be unable to survive on the next level world because I dared to try my hand at crafting instead of knowing I really wanted to be a monster hunter before I installed the game!
Maybe it’s an issue with there only being three tiers of worlds at the moment, early access and all that.
Maybe something like this:
Starter worlds - exactly that, for starters, learn the ropes and move on. Nothing to see here but copper and mobs who are neutral by default.
Tier 1 worlds - Copper and iron needed to hunt/gather. No skill investment needed to combat/mine efficiently, but you’ll feel better as you begin to invest. Silver available. Oortstones start to drop here from aggressive monsters which are introduced on this level world.
Tier 2 worlds - Silver and gold needed to hunt/gather. Skill points need to start being invested wisely. Decide which career path is for you, but be able to do a bit of everything. Titanium available.
Tier 3 worlds - Titanium and gems needed to hunt/gather. Skill points investment essential. You can survive some combat without investment, but there are enemies you need to run away from unless you’re combat-ready. Gems available. A challenge if you’re on your own, but you’ll get by - more profitable with a group but not essential.
Tier 4 worlds - Raid planets, the whole thing is basically a dungeon. Establish a foothold - set up defenses, mine in groups, take on the big-bads and reap the awesome loots. Like @AzureHelios describes above.
Tier 5 worlds - Basically one giant boss - you’d better have done some raids if you wish to survive here!
Tier 3, 4 and 5 worlds could have environmental hazards introduced. In tier 3 worlds these could be localised, in 4 and 5 they’re more abundant, meaning resistance investment or some sort of high-end alchemist is in your group supplying you with potions (so miners don’t have to waste skill points in a combat tree for example).
So groups aim for tier 4 and 5 worlds - solo/generalists don’t go there.
I was going to reply to some single posts, but there are so many that I’ll just reply generally.
I would just like to reiterate a key aspect of the game here:
Boundless is intended to be played, and enjoyed, by solo players. That has always and will always be the intention.
Boundless is a multiplayer game, and we are working hard to implement features that make it fun to play in an online world. Part of that is encouraging people to play together, and we have to balance that against solo players.
As @Feign has nicely described, we need to find the right spread of content which is accessible to single players and groups of varying levels, and incentivise players to engage with the content that they want to engage with. It’s all about balance, which is difficult, time consuming and takes many iterations to get right.
We’re working on it.
This is not true. To my knowledge there is nothing in the game that you can’t solo.
But there are efficiencies in playing with others. 2 players can kill a creature twice as quickly, and they both get drops. So this is a 4x multiplier (irrelevant of current or future balance.)
Not true. We’ve said many times that Boundless can be played by solo players.
What isn’t solo’able at the moment?
Whilst it’s on my mind, we could do with someway to prevent mob spawning. Torches seem pretty handy for this - basic torches prevent Level 1 mobs spawning, cloth torches Level 2, Lanterns Level 3, Gem torches Level 4, Somethingawesome torches Level 5 - that way using the planets above, you need high-end resources for that planet to make your base safe - this helps with the raid/boss planets at tier 4 and 5. I only raise it as the new creature spawning mechanism means there will always be mobs spawning in player villages/towns which really should be a safe spot, otherwise non-combat ready characters will not really be appropriate for higher tier planet communities.
Maybe the torches only prevent spawning if in a plot, that way you can’t litter the mine with torches to stop any problems there?
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i think @Feign should answer this question really since my answers are never good and i’d rather not make a dev angry xD
Not true. We’ve said many times that Boundless can be played by solo players. What isn’t solo’able at the moment?
Have you seen the video @SWProzee1 posted about his battle with a level 5 cuttle?
If you have the best gear, it is soloable. It isn’t profitable, but it’s soloable.
Without gem gear and heavy skillpoint investment, you can’t survive on tier 3 planets. One shot, and you’re done. 25% damage to all gear. Not worth the risk. You can’t get gems unless you go to tier 3 planets. Even then, you need to know where.
Add to that, now people who are managing hubs are saying they can’t keep them fueled given the scarcity of oortstones, the solo player will also need to manage their own portal to get to the dangerous place.
To top it all off, you need to have spent so many skillpoints upping strength, vitality, weaponry, mining, power, dexterity, you need to be a high level to even get started.
I’m not everyone, I’m sure there are people who love the current version, but personally for me it’s too much ask for too little reward - I don’t have the time to invest maxing out just to do the same thing with different sprites - and currently that’s what it feels like. The change in tools isn’t pronounced enough. Each tier of tool should feel considerably stronger, to make it worth the investment. I may as well just use a stone hammer and hit blocks on Therka, for all the difference gold hammers make. Plus the amount of resources to make a gold hammer, and the skill set needed? It’s taken me 40+ hours to get to that stage, and the hammer is only marginally better than stone except for the fact it can break titanium and gems? I know people will say buy it from others, but to me, if I have to buy from others, I’m not playing solo, simple as that.
I feel I should add, I’m level 28 at the moment, just so people don’t think I’m level 1 and trying Munteen. Maybe I’m there a bit early, but similarly I’m struggling to get by on moon worlds. One spitter hit me for half my health. If you want me to invest in attributes, they need to be cheaper otherwise I’m locking myself out of crafting until I reach end-game levels just to survive.
Naw dude i’m level 43 and have the same pain u do…harder worlds are dumb af…yes i don’t have that much into damage but even lvl 2 monsters were hard to kill on normal planets…luckily the AI is dumb so i can just avoid them and such…for me it’s about the mining and such…u should be highly rewarded for exploring highly dangerous planets…i mean hell i’ve died countless times in vulpto cause of a slip into lava plus it’s difficult to traverse.
Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.
Ok - so the balance still needs work.
How many portals should a solo player be able to maintain and for what time investment?
I’m not sure what the point is here? Yes - there is progression to improve your player.
Ok - so we need to work on the balance more. This update was the first that introduced varying block toughness based on world level.
Ok - so roughly speaking, at what Level do you think an average player should be able to comfortably exist on the current Moon and Ring worlds?
Or alternatively, roughly how long do you think an average player should invest before they’re comfortable existing on the current Moon and Ring worlds?
Because we can balance the game so that after 10 hours or 100 hours or N hours you call comfortably explore all world.
I don’t think u should be able to traverse the really hard worlds in 10 hours…but i’d like to think that every 15 levels should be able to account for maybe living “comfortably” in worlds…but idk…
There are obviously some balancing on creatures needed but I think what made the outbreak was that “harder planet” got released on live without the accompanying “additional reward for doing stuffs on those harder planet”. I’m talking about the additional drops for harder creature, additional ore for mining harder seam, etc (hoping that these rewards are on the pipeline at least).
I personally don’t want you guys to exert unnecessary effort by providing short term solutions or workarounds. IMHO, this release should probably be rolled back, balance Testing 172 with the “additional reward” system then pushed back to live.
I hope I didn’t sound too entitled as I tried my best not to.
Yes I did see it. And then I went and tested similar combat at 1am in the morning. And then I wrote a collection of notes about ways to improve it. And then I shared these with the other designers. And then I talked on the phone with them. And then we discussed the what we’re attempting to achieve for 1.0 and what we can do in the short term.
Great, thank you. As I said in my Steam review, I rate your team as a responsive development team.
Ok - so the balance still needs work.
Which is why I’ve been posting today - not to attack but to raise my concerns.
How many portals should a solo player be able to maintain and for what time investment?
I’m from a point of ignorance here, you’d be better asking those players who manage portal hubs. From a solo point of view, I’d expect to be paying a price for 1-2 hours worth of portal, increasing exponentially from there. As for the cost, I don’t have a frame of reference, but from the difficulty of acquiring oortstones from anywhere expect tier 3 worlds, I’d say 4 or so. The more abundant oortstones are, the more the cost can vary. Again though, no frame of reference.
Ok - so we need to work on the balance more. This update was the first that introduced varying block toughness based on world level.
Great thanks for taking my feedback on board.
Ok - so roughly speaking, at what Level do you think an average player should be able to comfortably exist on the current Moon and Ring worlds?
Like most, I’d see progression in level milestones. 10, 20, 30 etc. Personally, I’d separate survivability skills from career skills so people who want to craft aren’t locked out of seeing the worlds you’ve created. Alternatively, there could be some other way of temporarily increasing your survivability. Food boosts, potions, etc. So the non-combat character can survive but temporarily and at cost, whereas the combat character is permanently able to survive.
Or alternatively, roughly how long do you think an average player should invest before they’re comfortable existing on the current Moon and Ring worlds? Because we can balance the game so that after 10 hours or 100 hours or N hours you call comfortably explore all world.
I’d say check my post above about world tiers. The game will have more longevity if there is a permanent end challenge, progression to tier 3 worlds (in my example above), I’d be looking at my play length. 40+ hours should have me comfortably managing on my own, ticking along happily average, providing the gear for those who want the harder challenges. For the more die-hard players raid planets will offer endless play lengths - particularly boss planets, here you’re talking colonising and maintaining an actively hostile world!
At the moment, I’ve unlocked a good chunk of the crafting tree and set up a shop which I’m pretty proud of. It looks nice and it’s pretty well stocked. Now I want to maintain my goods, maybe unlock some more gear trees so I can supply more items - however I need skill points to do that. I can only get those, realistically, by mining or hunting which means I need a lot more points invested in non-craft trees. This means I have to progress in an opposite direction to the one I want to - I have to become a fighter/explorer/miner all in one. This would be fine but the skill point costs go up each time I buy a skill point and the time between levels gets longer and longer. Again - this is me and I don’t want to come across as attacking the game, I’m just saying it as I experience it. I could go back to Therka and mine copper and iron to get the levels, but then I get no sense of progression and feel like I need to max out before I can really play the way I want to.
Your beaconed area should prevent creatures from spawning in them - if it’s not, then it’s a bug.
I don’t think there should be a way to prevent them full stop though (and torches are already used in this exact way in minecraft - the less comparison you can have there, the better).
Wait??? IS THAT the reason u are trying so hard to make this game as less like MC as possible?? Dude whoo cares if torches stopped Minecraft mobs from spawning…it would be cool and such
There was a spitter in the portal hub of @SWProzee1 when I logged on this morning.
I disagree, to each his/her own, I feel towns should be a safe space if adequate passive protection is created for the reasons I gave, different tiered planets requiring different levels of protection. It just feels wrong to me that a creature can spawn inside patrolled walls - that could be the obstacle rather than torches - walled with a certain level of material.
You need a safe space on any planet, otherwise only combat-ready people will be able to live there and then you’re forcing a skill set on people. A craftsman who wants to help out on a raid planet would have to be able to fight as well or risk being killed at any moment - then you’ve forced a multi-role player. Like I said, maybe this only works in plotted areas to stop people plopping down torches where-ever.
Also, from a immersion point of view, how does a spitter get past patrolled walls to even be in the town (assuming walls)? Cuttles could be a different matter of course as they can fly.
As for the Minecraft comparison, torches were simply an example for explaining the mechanism idea. I think you’re going to be disappointed if you hope people won’t compare Boundless to Minecraft whatever mechanics are taken. It’s not a clone in the slightest, but it’s a lie to say there are no comparisons to be drawn. Sort of how most MMOs get compared to WoW, Everquest, even Ultima Online (showing my age).
This is going off how many Oort stones are dropped as well. A higher level mob should ALWAYS drop something better otherwise why fight it?
This is also taking into consideration the time spent searching for mobs. They’re not always a dime a dozen.
This is also going off the fact that the player does indeed have the absolute best weapon to use. A lesser weapon would increase these times.
I just wanna say that I am loving the harder mobs. It instantly gave me the feeling that there’s actually a battle system in place and made me want to call a friend over to help me defeat the mob I was fighting. It wasn’t until the final defeat and realization that I got absolutely nothing for my glorious win that made me never want to do it again. I honestly don’t care how long it takes to defeat a mob, as long as the reward is worth it. And with mobs this difficult to defeat I no longer feel that the skill “luck” is nessesary.
Beacons already do the job of preventing them from spawning … why would you need to litter an unprotected landscape with torches? They’d be taken by regen or other players.
That shouldn’t happen - it’s worth mentioning in the bug list I think
I’m not saying that there won’t be comparisons, especially with the popularity and global awareness of MC. All I’m saying is that Boundless doesn’t have to copy MC in that regard to reinforce that comparison.
Becsons stop creature spawning, but they can still wander into a beacon from outside unlesd it is literally walled off in every single way