Long term game funding

You don’t consider exp boosts to be game-breaking? Interesting, I’d consider them to be quite game-breaking.

I’m talking about pets, small vanity items (think like the class items from Destiny or small objects like scarves or armbands or something), or non-gear aesthetics like those Havok mentioned.

For the record, I’m all for armor skins, but I guess I understand why you consider them to be part of the aesthetics progression.

Yes, I’m in this camp. But I enjoy cash shops where I can get different fun aesthetic things. I’ve spent quite a bit on heroes skins and ESO pets/mounts.

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I was confused about that too O_o

XP boosts actually speeds the progression up something most people can agree is not nice.

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What if you could buy cash shop items with in-game currency as well as real cash? Obviously, it would be considerably higher cost with in-game currency.

God I would use so much time collecting money for that I often really like the vanity items but using real money on extra digital prettyfying is a no go for me.

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I thought of “game-breaking” as something like an item that has better stats than any ingame accessible/craftable item.
Exp boosts speed up your progression but ultimately don´t make you any stronger hence not “game-breaking”.
(This doesn´t mean that I´d like to see boosts though)

Since you mentioned Destiny,
Alternative emotes would also make an acceptable cashshop item imo.

That is actually a great idea.

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Be honest, is that because you wouldn’t really care for them?

I’m guessing many would be fine with this because it wouldn’t be incredibly desirable. I, at least, would not spend real money on extra emotes.

The challenge of a cash-shop is to introduce items that have high-incentive and low gameplay effect. If there’s a gameplay effect, players rage. If there aren’t desirable items, there’s no point.


I’m more interested in this now as a student of psychology than as a player/backer. Evidence seems to keep pointing to people not wanting skins/vanity items for real money because they don’t want to spend real money on things they want. But the whole point of a cash-shop, as I mentioned above, is to make the company money when players buy things they want.

The aesthetics progression argument seems reasonable at first, but since wearables are being horizontally developed instead of vertically, I’m not seeing much of an issue with an equally-cool-looking cash-shop wearable set.

Are there any other arguments against non-game-breaking cash-shop items other than the fact that they’d cost real money to buy?

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My attitude towards ingame purchases is always the same, regardless of what the shop offers:
If a game is f2p (or an MMO without fees) and I´ve played it for a while I´ll spend some money on it. Weather I get a skin,an animation or an old sock from a dev is pretty irrelevant for me tbh.


I think I just miss ‘the good old times’ where buying a game meant that you got all the content and awesome extras had to be unlocked and not bought.
And games with dedicated servers simply charged you a fee.

Quoted from a similar discussion in another forum.

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Now you’ve done it. You persuaded me to favor monthly fees over a cash shop.

P.S. I miss “the good old times” too T_T

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That is an amazingly good point, though I kinda feel the same about paying mothly fees :confused:

It is a very valid point on why to avoid vanity items though.

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Yeah I also think that B< is a game that isn´t suited for monthly fees (and the devs already denied the implementation of monthly fees plenty of times). That´s why I hope that their rented world model (+ potential account services) are enough to maintain the servers and pay the ~20 developers.

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The thing about the way of “the good ol days” is that in many ways it ultimately failed. The longer a player plays, the more the game costs, leading to subscriber exhaustion and dropped subscriptions. In order to keep players coming back, devs have to keep making new content with steadily decreasing subscriptions. The only option for devs to maintain a similar revenue with fewer subscriptions is to either raise subscription costs or reduce server costs. As server performance drops, more subscribers leave, and the cycle continues.

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I don’t mind monthly fees, but this game has already been advertised as being b2p. And this thread is intended to discuss alternative methods of funding outside of just buying the game. If you have any ideas outside of server rentals and cash-shops, please share them :smiley: !


Your quote is emotionally powerful and touches on some very serious themes but I still don’t see it as a proper argument. The first sentence mentions that people play games, among other reasons, to escape the general inequality of life. Yet your second to last sentence says that whether or not people can afford the items is irrelevant. I’d argue that the latter is completely contradictory to the former. If the general inequality of life, i.e. financial status of players, is a major contributing factor to the reason people play games (to escape from their financial status compared to other individuals) then it is quite relevant.

Regardless of the contradiction that I believe is present, I’m going to pick out what I think the two main sub-arguments are and address each as separate arguments.

[quote=“Vastar, post:233, topic:619”]When your wallet becomes an increasingly powerful tool, when options are made available that allow you to stand out even more some people see this as a violation of the sanctuary they’re already paying to escape to.
[/quote]

My interpretation of the above: Adding items from a cash-shop breaks the reality of the imagined world.

Backing tiers already have access to exclusive tools/weapons, titles, beacon sizes (game-breaking), etc. No one is complaining about these. With 4800 wearable pieces available at 1.0 on top of a variety of races and appearance customizations, it’s unlikely people are going to have difficulty standing out in the way they’d like. If anything, adding additional options can be argued to increase the realism of games. And if someone truly feels like a cash-shop violates their sanctuary, they should likely seek professional help immediately. I say this not as a joke, but with 100% seriousness. If the addition of a cash-shop harms someone emotionally or mentally, they should seek assistance. I’d argue that model/armor skins or vanity items could easily be interpreted as an addition to the game’s imagined world. Humans are an adaptive species and adding in new content to an imagined world should be readily acceptable to most people if the idea of adding extra content is (otherwise any game with any expansion ever would be considered as a violation of the sanctuary the game provides to people trying to escape reality).

One could even argue that adding cash-shop items enhances the realism of the imagined world. For example, the costumes, pets, mounts, etc. sold in ESO. I could easily argue that giving myself a cat that is only obtainable through “crowns” (the ESO currency) is because of some role-play details that deepen my immersion in the game and increase the joy I gain from playing it. Likewise, the wedding costumes, which are used in weddings between players, can also further enhance both immersion and satisfaction. What’s more sacramental than a nice marriage eh?

And here again is the “I need money to buy cash-shop items I want” argument. It’s completely true, cash-shop items require cash. But as I already pointed out, backer tiers already offer increased benefit and both increased game-breaking and non-game-breaking rewards go to people with a higher level backing tier. In the case of the tools and weapons, you’re gaining something additional and exclusive to only those tiers. How is this any different from gaining additional wearables for funds? Why is your argument against a cash-shop and not against backing tiers and rewards in general?

Anyone who wants to play a video game like Boundless while entirely rejecting the reality of money has already failed themselves. Because Boundless is not f2p, it’s b2p. In other words, you need to have money to even access the game. So rejecting real-world money because you’re playing in an imagined world isn’t 100% possible to begin with. So if we focus instead on the “riding on the coattails of money” to mean that those with coattails belong to a tailcoat, which is a garment historically worn by the wealthy, we get back into the argument that people with more money in the real-world can afford things that others may not be able to afford. Which is good and all. Except that Boundless has currency. And that fact that people with a higher amount of money can buy more things than people with a lower amount of money can doesn’t go away. It’s valid in both the real and imagined worlds. But Boundless still lets you leave behind any real-world class systems so roles can be totally reversed. Someone could run a completely success and dominating mining company in-game with employees and shops in different cities and everything and yet not be as well off in real-life. That’s part of the game and seems like it more than lets someone escape their real-world financial status.


Exactly what @Havok40k just said. Maintaining is NOT what we want. We want funds to allow for enhancements in terms of performance and content!

And don’t forget that not just devs get paid here. It takes a village to make this baby. They also have a QAer and some artists/animators on their team, they have to pay for their office and power bills, etc.

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As someone who used to play Perfect World(EXTREMELY p2w and gashapon). I see no problem with seeing skins or costumes in a cash shop.

The only problems I’ve ever had and experienced is the need to buy boosts in games, and putting ultra rare vanity items in 1$ chance boxes. PW for example, had hyper EXP stones that boost your exp gain by up to x12 for an hour. What pulled me into their game though, was the cool visuals and flying mounts (that only came from the chance boxes).

it was a dirty way of making money through temptation and gambling, but it worked. All i’m trying to say though, is that i’ve experienced the worst to know that adding something minimal as costumes or skins into the cash shop wouldn’t be as game-breaking as it seems compared to other things like exp boosts and gashapons.

I agree with @Vastar though. Yet on the other hand, people like me can’t spend that much time on games as much as before. I used to play from morning til tomorrow to just get enough points to buy a void knight set in runescape when I was a kid, but now that i’m at that age where I have to get my act together. I don’t have that much time to play games as much anymore.

Let’s not forget the times we live in now as much as the good times we remember living in the past.

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At least selling our socks to @Vastar is a viable backup plan

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I bet some people here would buy limited edition Lester sock puppets :lester:

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Actually, even though that’s a joke it’s a pretty solid idea that’s been discussed before. Not so much the Lester sock puppets but Boundless products to use in the real world. I know people have already offered money for one of the pink Oort Online wristbands and people have asked for shirts and stuff in the past. Not saying I’d rather see this instead of skins/vanity items. Personally I’d preferably see both (which is what many games do).

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Hey Everyone.

This is a really interesting thread for us because it gives us a better understanding of how different people perceive different purchase options. So please keep it coming. @olliepurkiss and I have been following the thread and discussing internally how all the points relate to our ever developing plans.

So what does it mean for Boundless? Firstly some background.

The main value we’re tracking and optimising is “Cost Per Concurrent Player Per Month”. Basically how much does it cost us to run the game for a single person for a month. We’re trying to get this cost as low as possible. The more we optimise the game the cost goes down, but the more features we add (normally) the cost goes up. When players buy the game (and after the standard costs are removed) we’re left with money to: 1. continue developing the game, and 2. continue hosting the game. We clearly need some additional payment options that allow us to keep the game viable the longer players stay active in the game, else we’d eventually start losing money for all players. The question is what should we include? What would turn players onto the game, rather than turn players off the game.

With Boundless we’re attempting to do something relatively new. We’re not attempting to charge a monthly sub, and we’re also not going f2p. So there is definitely some experimentation required to find the right answer. There also isn’t as much prior art that we can lean on. So ideas, experimentation and feedback from the community are essential. We’ve already talked about Official Private Boundless Servers + worlds which fits naturally into the universe and has been done before(ish).

We do have some ideas for payments for the game beyond launch. And we definitely plan to share these with everyone before we start adding them. However, whilst they’re still in development we want to do 2 things:

  1. Gather player sentiment: We want to gather more information from our community about the types of payments everyone would be happy with and likewise the type that they would oppose. This thread has shown that there are a spectrum of opinions. We’re planning a survey that covers a spectrum of options - and it’s your chance to help steer us. Expect this survey after we’ve got the C++ release live.

  2. Understand the game: We don’t want to announce the proposed payment options until players have a better understanding of the game’s core features. As I explained here the next major feature update is the point where everyone will experience the core of the game. It’s only after you’ve seen, played, and appreciate this - that I think we can answer intelligently which payment options make most sense for the game.

So this thread is great. It’s really helpful. We’re interested in what you think and we’re going to be active to pull this information from the community who aren’t vocal on the forum. Then based on this feedback and the core functionality of the game, we’ll share the options we’re exploring. Fingers crossed we’ll find a solution everyone can get behind and we can sustain Boundless with lots of updates and features into the future.

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Sorry but I don´t agree with that interpretation.
A cashshop rarely has influence on the immersion of a game (not that I would particularly care for that aspect) but it undeniably nullifies this:

Which, in my opinion, is the most important part about a game right after being fun.


Slightly off topic but by my count it is: ‘10 sets of wearables’ x ‘9-15 pieces per set (dependent whether shoulder pieces etc. are just mirrored versions of the same model or independent models)’ = 90-150 pieces (with 2 variations for each one)

Sadly it´s not different in the slightest but as you already said:


This has already been mentioned by the guy i quoted:

It´s not about rejecting real money entirely, which indeed would be silly, but about making money a tool that gets you things you can´t obtain by playing the game.


Better? :grin:


I think we could keep arguing about this until B< released and went offline again so to (hopefully) settle our little argument let´s say that we both made our point very clear and go back to making new suggestions about funding concepts everyone can be happy with again.

Sure, that’s fine. I just want to clarify a few points though to make everything a bit more clear.

But in a game like Boundless, people are different from the get-go. This is due to racial differences, progression differences, etc. Eventually guild ties, alliances, social strategies, etc. will set players apart economically too. In a skill combat game, people will be set apart at the higher levels too.

One of the truths of the world is that there is no such thing as a level playing field. There is no such thing as true, all-encompassing equality. And that’s a good thing, as modern biology teaches us (otherwise we’d probably all have died during the first major pandemic).[quote=“Vastar, post:244, topic:619”]

90-150 pieces (with 2 variations for each one)
[/quote]

I’m going by slots, not models. So 150, with 2 variations for each one = 300. With tints (16 colors so far) = 4800. 4800 total items for slots.