Players claiming hundreds (or more) of plots to block access to Diamonds

[JohnDeW]

#6, we need limited supply items, alot of games have this and they worked fine, please allow the playerbase to have some items that we can speculate on , spooky seed is the only item, it’s just one item out of hundreds that we can do this with. Plus when people quit , it will give incentives to search for houses that may drop limited time items , nothing wrong with having a incentive to play alot more during the limited time events and for the rich players to hand over their coins for the newer players that have more time to farm the limited time resources, it will keep the economy /money flow going.

[Edit] you can tell who has seeds and who doesn’t , the replys are pretty biased ,

The reason why we play this game is because there is many things to do , if people don’t like the speculation on limited time items then don’t cut the game up into tiny pieces and remove stuff, I don’t like to hunt but you don’t see me trying to get hunting removed from the game.

No need to remove everything out of the game to make it vanilla copy of a voxel game.

[Manabanana]

A few follow ups:

1. I am trying to be positive here… but how is this not directly pay to win? As a player, I can spend real life currency to gain an advantage in game using this method. Sure there will be other less dense areas, but following these guidelines, I can ensure I have access to the most dense areas, thus giving an advantage. It isn’t even that expensive to do so, it would seem (I guess everyone’s $ is different though).

2. Your comments about walling off half the world seem to make sense. Is there really difference between walling off half the world and walling off a large cube, with the sole intention of denying players access? What is the threshold?

3. In a way this relates to 1. In a game we play for escapism, should we really be bounded by the amount of $ we have? If we are accepting this behavior, and it is enough of a hotbutton issue with the 1000 or so daily players we currently have (best stats I have), how will it get better?

In summary, I was drawn to this game because of the fun sharing community. I’ve been given free hammers, lots of advice, I even had a member walk me to my destination when I was lost. I’ve had people help build, played some in-game games. These, in my opinion are the things that people fall in love with the game for. I really hope that these individual players that are a detriment to the rest of the community are not playing with, acceptable behavior. Encountering the handful as it is, leaves a far more negative reaction than the deeds of many of the good players. The saying about the apple and all.

That being said, thanks for taking time to look into it and provide some insight. I’m extremely dissatisfied with the response, but I am happy to at least have one.

[Jirodyne]

@james

But there is an argument that there is an economy in the game and we should leave the economy to work. If a resource is scarce its price goes up. If a resource is monopolised its price goes up. But if demand contracts then the price falls. We have already seen this in other resources.

For example, what will happen to the price of the spooky seeds once the event completes? There is zero supply at this point. The price will gradually increase. Should we instantly spawn more spooky seeds when new players complain that they can’t afford them or find them? Or is this a benefit for the players who collected the seeds during the event?

The other points I can understand, but this one I have to disagree with. In a group, or very few players, were to control all… Lets say Diamonds, and for the sake of arguement, you can’t change other gems into Diamonds.

Diamond Prices would indeed raise, cause they were the only people selling it, they can sell it at any price they want.

As for falling down in price because lag of demand… This is NOT true in most cases. If they really MUST sell the Diamonds, or else, then yes. The prices will drop. But if they control Diamonds, and no one else has access to them, they not only control Diamonds, but every machine, tool, and object that needs Diamonds to make it.

So tho Diamonds themselves might not be selling, Gem Tools, Coils, Advance Coils, and so on would be selling even if people hate the price, but they can’t make them other wise, and need them to progress in the game. Coils and Advance Coils especially for Power to get access to other Recipies, most of which don’t need Diamonds.

But more than that, They can sell anything and everything else, and don’t NEED to drop Diamond prices at all, cause they can sell other stuff for money, which they might not even need.

Money is not a REQUIREMENT to Progress, It isn’t NEEDED for anything, as people love to keep yelling at me. So if they have all the Diamonds, that doesn’t mean they NEED to drop the prices, if people buy less of them. Cause people would still buy them over time, and the controller can get money easily in any other way, and use the Diamonds in Recipies and sell those as well.

Economy is part of the game, yes, but it isn’t even a very big part. It’s there to be a shortcut when you don’t want to grind something, you can grind something else, sell it, and buy what you don’t want to grind. But in the end, you’re grinding either way. People don’t ‘Need’ Money. The Economy is not a centralized, or core mechanic of the game. You could remove all Coin from the game, and people would just start trading item for item through hand trading instead.

[LennonMarx]

I just want to piggy back on this, as my reaction is largely the same. The community in this game has great elements, but the economy is trending toward EVE, and the economy of EVE makes all of EVE a cesspool. For a game that at least wants to use the term “sandbox” in it’s marketing, I don’t understand the desire to have a hyper competitive economy driven by artificial scarcity.

As always, though, thank you, devs, for communicating with us in a clear fashion even if I disagree with a lot of what you have to say.

[Venom]

Piggybacking what james said about being able to get into these sectioned off areas, it is very possible. Whether you use sanctum warping or other methods, you can eventually warp inside. Its an inconvenience at the most.

I wouldnt really call this game pay to win at all though. You can literally only own the plots the game gives via leveling and still have the same advantage as everyone else (minus having the benefit of a large surface area for footfall). Most people make their money through shops/gathering/selling. Which is all very possible with minimal plots.

[Karrade]

@Jirodyne

Economy is part of the game, yes, but it isn’t even a very big part

This is hugely subjective. I understand for you this is true.

For me and I am not a shopkeeper, but already again its a big part. I imagine if I was running a full time shop it’d be a huge part.

@Jirodyne

You could remove all Coin from the game, and people would just start trading item for item through hand trading instead.

I could not play the game and solo build if coin were removed, as it currently is anyway.

People are telling you its a big part of the game, because for them, and me, it is.

[Peyago]

Actually, you can change rubies into diamonds. I do it occationally with topaz to sapphires.

[fidach]

Thanks for the response James, and I am willing to accept pretty much all your points except the following.

@james

I see very little difference between a player plotting a mountain to build a base versus plotting a mountain to reserve the gems inside. Both restrict other players from accessing to the blocks + resources within the beacon.

A player can reserve a spot to build anywhere on any planet, so there is not much problem with plotting and blocking access.

With diamonds, and I wish to concentrate specifically on these, you have created a resource which is essential for making advance crafted items. And there is only 1 planet with limited points on this planet that these can be gathered.

So to say there is little difference between plotting the surface to build and plotting the limited spawn area of a resource to block others access seems a little skewed.

[Manabanana]

You can’t warp inside for 2 reasons, you can’t warp somewhere you haven’t been, and you also can’t warp into solid rock.

I’m assuming either a the guy in question forgot a plot (fixable for the griefer), or perhaps he found a piece of mantle that was slightly out of place to the plot (also fixable for the griefer). I’m sure the player in question will read this and double check to double plot the areas of mantle that were missed.

There is also an exploit currently about mantle, so it’s possible this was a reference,.but I can’t assume that because he also said it was easy, and I’d rather not spread that info. Easy is relative though, especially from a dev.

I spent quite a bit of time looking for an entrance, plotting mode and all. I wasn’t even sure if it would be considered griefing though, since normally mining exactly around someone elses plot is generally considered bad behavior. I abandoned my efforts, perhaps too soon.

I was hoping I wouldn’t even have to consider this sort of thing, or to take action and be forced to “steal” to counter negative behavior. It would have seemed to me to be encouraging bad behavior. It sort of leads to … getting griefed now? ok I can get around it, but he will build a bigger way to grief.

[Venom]

It’s possible as I have done it before on accident lol. I was teleported into someone’s mine and when i tried to get out it was locked so i couldnt open the door. Eventually had to warp back to sanctum and keep bumping warp to the surface

[Jirodyne]

@Karrade

For me and I am not a shopkeeper, but already again its a big part. I imagine if I was running a full time shop it’d be a huge part.

I am a shop owner, look under the Trade section of the Forum, and you’ll even see my thread about my shop that I posted just yesterday even lol or might have been the day before. shrugs

Either way, I’m not saying Economy isn’t important to players as a short cut, and a playstyle.

What I’m saying is that it isn’t NEEDED, and that you can literally rip it out, and the game would still function the exact same. People would still be making shops, only for hand trading instead of coins. Using Signs to list their wares, and Location Chip Request Baskets for people to leave a message with the item they want to buy and their user name and times they play so the Shop Owner can contact them during those times.

It would be more steps to do it, but it CAN be done.

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@Peyago

Actually, you can change rubies into diamonds. I do it occationally with topaz to sapphires.

Ahem.

@Jirodyne

Lets say Diamonds, and for the sake of arguement, you can’t change other gems into Diamonds.

[Manabanana]

Trust me, I know of how to game the system, with bump, with resource regen ect. These methods are not usable . Furthermore, I’ve never seen an instance where you can warp into solid rock.

Follow up to the response, since this post looks bugged… both locked and unlocked at the same time…

First I want to say, that while it wasn’t the response I was hoping for, I’m glad to at least have a little insight into what you & team were thinking.

I am excited at the prospect of temporary planets for mining, planets that can’t be… for lack of a better word… cheased the way we are starting to see on our existing worlds.

I want to add that I am not against micro-transactions, and am not against you monetizing the game. As a developer myself (albeit one who has enjoyed far less success than Wonderstruck), I get it. As an early backer I saw plots as fair game as it seemed more cosmetic… you could build larger and more beautiful structures if you paid.
The problem that I did not anticipate was that the plots you have could potentially intersect gameplay, as, in my opinion we are starting to see now.

I agree, it can be hard to know players true intentions. In this case, and I will try to be as general as possible, in order to not name and shame… you have players who we can verify are the ones partaking in this activity, and they are, in this very post, admitting to the fact that they intend to cut off resources. I don’t think their intetions will ever be more plain than what we can see now.
To make matters worse, they are explaining their justification by saying the marketing material from the Wonderstruck team is encouraging them to do, what most other memebers of the community (as least judging from this thread, and the others like it), a bad activity.

Perhaps some direction from someone in a leadership position saying “this is not what we intended”, even if you can do nothing, practically, to stop it. I believe it would at least do some measure to curb the activity, and steal the moral imperative this small number of individuals feel they have now.

I only reccomend this because shaping the community is probably the most important part of a game. It’s possible that there is a crossroads, but a little encouragement and direction might help guide the community to be positive and collective instead of competitive and malicious.

Thanks for your time and your thoughtful response James. At least I feel as if I have been heard. You have an incredible game on your hands, and I don’t want to sound ungrateful. I may not agree with all of the decisions, but there is a great community and much to look forward to.

P.S. It’s strange that this post is getting locked again and again, despite it taking a more constructive turn. Is there a bug with the auto-moderator, or are players potentially abusing the flag system?

[Venom]

Ok lol

[Karrade]

@Jirodyne

What I’m saying is that it isn’t NEEDED, and that you can literally rip it out, and the game would still function the exact same. People would still be making shops, only for hand trading instead of coins. Using Signs to list their wares, and Location Chip Request Baskets for people to leave a message with the item they want to buy and their user name and times they play so the Shop Owner can contact them during those times.

It would be more steps to do it, but it CAN be done.

its not practical. Certainly not when I’ve got work on again.

Maybe arranging a week next tuesday to get one machine that I could have spent the week using, if I am lucky enough to catch the guy on. Not to mention timezones making some shops just completely non useable for me. The owner of a busy store would need to be stood their 24/7 in some cases.

If they could do alts that were online at the same time, or a basket system for barter that would work, but that’s what coin is minus things like banks, debt interest or currency trading, just an easy method of bartering.

[crypticworlds]

A player shouldn’t be told how to use their plots so long as it follows the CoC guidelines and rules. If they want to plot around resources, fine. IMO they aren’t really doing much but wasting plots doing that. It would take a group of players a lot of time and money to do that to an entire resource on a world and when other worlds that spawn the resource (such as a particular gem) is introduced it completely negates it. This is of course if that group of players had the goal of trying to capture an entire individual resource on a world.

I would much rather build something with those thousand or so plots that generate footfall, has a shop on it, and provides something of value to the player base. It isn’t my place to tell someone how they should use the stuff they have in the game as I can only make suggestions.

With that said… so what if they wall off resources cause they can play the game that way if they want to within the game rules?

[Peyago]

Sorry, I only skimmed your posts due to length.

[Jirodyne]

Waiting two more days to get paid, then buying Fallout 76 or whatever to try. Want to see how Bethesdia screws up another Fallout game.

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This topic is temporarily closed for 4 hours due to a large number of community flags.

Are people actually flagging the Thread, or is there just a single player reading the title of the thread, and flagging it with bots cause it has a not so happy title? I know one of the other threads got locked again and again and again after each time it unlocked.

[james]

(Minor abuse of my privileges by replying to a closed thread - but whatever…)

@Manabanana

I am trying to be positive here… but how is this not directly pay to win? As a player, I can spend real life currency to gain an advantage in game using this method. Sure there will be other less dense areas, but following these guidelines, I can ensure I have access to the most dense areas, thus giving an advantage. It isn’t even that expensive to do so, it would seem (I guess everyone’s $ is different though).

If players were able to pay to beacon the monopoly of diamond sources then I fully agree this would be a pay2monopolise situation. But in this particular case I don’t see that. It’s 1 player claiming a tiny area that is no different to building a base. The resources that have become unavailable are basically the same as someone building a base in the same area. They have claimed a tiny fraction of the viable spawning area of diamonds. This will have zero effect of the availability of diamonds for all other players.

Now let us assume that many players claim chunks of the world. Then let us then assume that finding viable diamond spawning areas becomes much harder, then as I said here:

@james

New worlds are generated based on concurrent population, beacon coverage, and some other heuristics.

… new worlds would automatically be spawned.

So again - I don’t think it would ever get to the point where non-paying players wouldn’t be able to easily find the resources they seek.

(To be clear - we’re working very hard to make sure the game isn’t pay2win. I understand that introducing any monetisation into a game could lead to winning - but we’re working hard, and thinking hard, and striving to keep stuff fair and reasonable and considerate of everyone in the game. But we need some monetisations to maintain the game servers. If we didn’t need to maintain the game servers, say it was an offline game, then we would never had introduced IAP.)

@Manabanana

Your comments about walling off half the world seem to make sense. Is there really difference between walling off half the world and walling off a large cube, with the sole intention of denying players access? What is the threshold?

My point is that it’s almost impossible to determine what a player is claiming and why. It’s extremely open ended. So ideally we want to be able to give players freedom.

(A quick note - I’ll be posting shortly about some ideas for reducing player-player claiming conflicts.)

@Manabanana

In a way this relates to 1. In a game we play for escapism, should we really be bounded by the amount of $ we have? If we are accepting this behavior, and it is enough of a hotbutton issue with the 1000 or so daily players we currently have (best stats I have), how will it get better?

Totally agree. You should not be bound by the number of $ you’ve played. I don’t believe that players who can claim a mountain are at an advantage give the huge amount of unclaimed resource rich environments. Once the world contains too many plots a new world is automatically generated.

Additionally - I’m also exploring a system for temporary worlds. These worlds would be added to the universe for a fixed period. They could be discovered, warped to, explored, mined for resources, and harvested for unique colours. But as they’re temporary they wouldn’t allow claiming plots. This would also limit the value in claiming resources. There will be other worlds that offer the same resources.

@LennonMarx

I just want to piggy back on this, as my reaction is largely the same. The community in this game has great elements, but the economy is trending toward EVE, and the economy of EVE makes all of EVE a cesspool. For a game that at least wants to use the term “sandbox” in it’s marketing, I don’t understand the desire to have a hyper competitive economy driven by artificial scarcity.

To be clear I said:

@james

6. But there is an argument that there is an economy in the game and we should leave the economy to work.

I’m not saying this is my argument. But rather it could be argued.

I think this is already happening. But the unlimited amounts of resources per world via regen makes it almost impossible. So it’s really an issue of time to gather rather than payers monopolising any resources.

@fidach

With diamonds, and I wish to concentrate specifically on these, you have created a resource which is essential for making advance crafted items. And there is only 1 planet with limited points on this planet that these can be gathered.

So to say there is little difference between plotting the surface to build and plotting the limited spawn area of a resource to block others access seems a little skewed.

Understood. But you’re thinking this with only a single Blast world in the universe.

Whereas I’m thinking about this knowing that more worlds will automatically spawn based on plot density on the Blast world. (And the ideas for temporary worlds that I’m exploring. Maybe we should turn off regen on them?)