i dont think there will be dedicated classes in the general sense, but hopefully there will be playstyles for it. (sorry to bring it up again) TSW. you had 3 types of gear, they all had a basic stat (some dmg, armor ish) then there were 3 types fo gear, healing, tanking and dps, Healing gear would give ‘‘healing power’’ tanking gear would give a ton of hp and resistance and dps geat would get more damage + penetration. even though you can make any skill build you want. there were still some restrictions. like a healer without healing gear could work, but it is very hard.
so to refer back. not really classes. but most likely certain tradeoffs (more dps means less health, more healing means less dps. etc…) if you dont then you will end up in a gw2 situation, though i like the game the dungeons were horrible cause there was nothing like a trinity, it was just every man for himself.
Ouh, the results went missing. But yeah, most people wanted to have it rough and tough. The idea for tier + and ++ is real good. I love it if there is no upper limit in difficulty. On this way the players themself with their game skills set the maximum possible, what is to be encouraged
As long as the hardest difficulty tier doesn’t punish you for not using it and resources can be found elsewhere (if in less abundance). I don’t want the game to become an mmorpg like WoW, it’s not like that.
I don’t see the game as a game littered with creeps where you defeat them to get loot, we already have trove and I doubt the execution would be done better on boundless.
IMO the game at its core is community, exploration and creation. Combat can be there, but does the trailer or any media surrounding the game show it off as a combat oriented experience? I think not, as any player of trove will tell you, combat (of that style) gets stale.
I didn’t read the whole thread as it seemed there was a lot of idea repetition.
Didn’t say there shouldn’t be combat. Just said that a tier system with numbers (visible) wouldn’t suit the style of boundless. MMO style combat like Trove don’t make combat fun or engaging in the long run.
That’s what you said in your posts, something about 10++ tiers, correct me if I’m wrong.
“rich first person ranged and melee combat”, having bigger numbers doesn’t make combat rich, I’m not arguing against combat. It is necessary, I won’t argue about how in depth the combat can be but what you were talking about is some sort of tier system, having weapons of different tiers. (1 to 10++?)
Combat can enrich the game with a community, look at WoW’s endgame. I’m arguing against the fundamental way you want to implement it.
Also if you look at the rest of the website, you can see that combat isn’t the main priority there, it takes a large role, but isn’t the primary. There’s a section on world generation, block types, becoming a citizen, building, beacons, portals, collaborating on builds, guilds, economy, owning a world, exploring, creatures, unique worlds but three sections dedicated to combat.
Like I said, combat can be there, but it isn’t the focus.
We arent the ones who made the tier system, it’s the devs. again read this
we were just discussing HOW hard they should be. i think they turned around and said that they are messing around with it atm and see if they can change it a bit, BUT AT THE TIME the post was made and we had this discussion, this was the plan.
Context and time period matters. For an overview i would recommend looking through the dev logs, they contain alot of info on plans and such.
Sorry for being annoyed, i just saw you as yet another arrogant guy who just bought the game and is like “Hurr durr it HAS to be like this cause i said so” i would recommend instead of claiming something, ask if something has been mentioned, i have been with the game for 1½ years like many of the others and i basically remember near everything said by the devs and i wouldnt mind answering questions
From playing the game as is right now, I didn’t get the impression that this was the route they would want to choose. It’s their game not mine, but I don’t feel like the game revolving around a tier system is the way to go.
How can a tier system of weapons work and be balanced (or not dramatically unfair to new players) in pvp?
However they choose to implement a system, I hope it turns out as well as other aspects of the game. It is a make or break feature. I think tier systems are unnecessary and don’t add to gameplay, I played many hours of trove and the end-game is stale. It depends if the devs go pve or pvp and how the end-game is implemented.
Whatever they choose I don’t think it will detract from the game if they execute it well.
The number of tiers doesn’t really matter, it should be long enough that it feels like it doesn’t take forever, but not too long that it becomes a grind. The end-game is what matters, it makes or breaks the system. The people who enjoy the system the most are the ones who are going to stick around for the end-game.
a proper made game doesn’t need to focus everything on an endgame, i know for many games that is really the case, but there are also some that focus on the leveling as an experience rather than it being a means to get to the endgame, gw2 is a good example.
by pvp im assuming you mean “mc style you can kill everyone everywhere” that wont be, in general we talked about pvp and pve specific worlds on the server, but the devs went out and said that “it would be hard to balance it around PvP so we wont” they talked about a potential idea of PvP was “fun” pvp as in competitive games or stuff rather than just go stab things to death.
you keep mentioning trove, this ISNT Trove, just because they are voxel RPGS both of them. Trove was a mediocre RPG with non interesting progress very boring worlds that all looked the same and the entire point was just “go to dungeon, destroy it, go to next dungeon, destroy it, go up to next world” As you said so yourself it isnt about combat entirely, its also about guilds, building, crafting and progress. Progress being the biggest difference. You seem to compare it to Trove and Minecraft, but when i hear Sandbox mmorpg i think SWG or The repopulation. The tiers as they were. should be for those who WANT to do combat, that is why i think its fair that you have up to say 10 tiers and say “this is for the casuals” and then the + and ++ for the hardcore fighters. The tiers shouldn’t in my eyes affect your progress otherwise, you COULD explore tier 1 worlds, master crafting without leaving tier 1 worlds etc etc. that is something i think would be important. I’m definitely against a sort of “you cant go above 120 in swordmaking unless you have unlocked tier 5” but the upper tiers should mean stronger enemies. i dont believe that boundless will have levels but instead be more open ended, which is why i think progress should be tied to somethign ELSE. even though that is also kinda weird atm, i recommend you read this.
They havent been too direct atm on how progress will work, but given that they planned for tiers i think its safe to assume that there has to be SOME sort of combat progress, because if there wasn’t then there would be no point, there would be nothing to strive for.
If you want to go explore and build you should always be able to, but i still believe that the idea of having to kill a titan is a good idea, because if you cant kill the titan of the previous tier i would assume that you would just get destroyed on the next tier. you should earn your way up, not just be handfed everything.
You keep saying “mmo combat” what is that? is that just anything which isn’t minecraft “hold left click to win”? because mmo combat really isnt a very well defined term… Trove had minimal skills and combat which made it boring in my eyes.
Totally agree with you, I also see B< as a game that mainly revolves around social features/interaction and engaging the sandbox. Not an in depth combat system.
They already gave us a hint about the planed combat system a while ago (so this plan might already have changed several times without anyone in the community knowing):
Which I interpret as: You´ll have 1(or maybe 2) “action skills” and the rest of the combat will be done by “aim and click” like it is done in Borderlands. Eventually we´ll get a melee system that is similar (I suspect it being a lot like Skyrim).
And that sounds like a concept I can totally get behind.
He´s probably referring to the hotbar that most MMORPGs use.
Which trove is a ■■■■ version of, if anything trove is LITERALLY what you suggested, “2 skills and then just click and shoot” and it was horrible, but we have discussed this many times. i think skyrim combat was just boring and dont find it to fit MMO’s at all. but matter of taste
But i do indeed think there will be social and explorative features in the game. I for one look forward to playing a crafter. However i bought the game as a sort of “Easier version of SWG with proper combat” sandbox for ME doesnt mean “Lulz its all about building and derping around” but rather you have the CHOICE to build, or craft, or fight. I believe that the team will come up with something pretty good. but to explain it better, if they said they would make “skyrim style” spam click combat, would be for me the same feeling as if they turned it the other way around and said “you will only get 5 blocks types to build with” it could theoretically work, but it would be a dang shame.
GW2? That sort of scope is out of this game’s league (for version 1.0), what mechanics that game has are too difficult and time consuming to produce without neglecting other areas (for version 1.0). Don’t get me wrong that style is great but I doubt you could implement that in this type of game with all these other aspects. I wouldn’t mind if that was there in the future, but probably not for version 1.0
Honestly, skyrim combat is the easy way to go (for version 1.0). I don’t mind if it is used like a placeholder for something better down the line. You seem to feel strongly about the combat, I have experienced burnout from lots of combat engines before and I doubt Boundless can change that if it mimics them. Tell me if I’m wrong if the combat engine you were talking about was along the lines of WoW and quote a relevant post of yours alongside. I got the impression with the tiers you were talking about.
So how would you make/envision combat (at a basic summarised mechanics level)?
For me reasonable combat expectations for version 1.0 are:
1.* click an enemy before a range limit to hit them with melee weapons, projectiles for ranged weapons with momentum and gravity mechanics
2.* 3 enemy types with 1 or 2 variants each
3.* 2 to 4 biome specific enemies
4.* 3 to 4 protectors
5.* 1 titan
6.* 3 to 6 tiers of weapons/armour
7.* 3 to 4 types of weapons/armour
8.* recoil mechanics on enemy hit and yourself being hit
9.* better health indicators
Things to expand on after version 1.0:
1.*more weapons/armour/enemy types
2.*more weapons/armours/enemies
3.*creative weapons/enemies/bosses
4.*special on hit effects such as poison/burn
5.*explosive enemies+weapons
6.*wind/water pushing mechanics for enemies and weapons
7.*mounted combat
8.*momentum affects damage
9.*revival of other players
10.*aircraft combat
11.*oort technology
12.*overhauled combat engine to closer resemble another game
let me turn it around then, what if i said to you “i think that the game should only have 5 blocktypes with 2 colors of each block” would you think that would be enough for a game like this? No ofc not! I dont think the game will use tab target combat, im actually pretty sure they wont, but that doesnt mean they have to resort to “just spam leftclick to win” what makes combat interesting is interesting encounters and the ability to make skill builds you can fight with, i feel that an appropiate combat system would be something where you can pick 6 skills out of a variety, all would be skillshots ofc. Enemies should also do more than just attack you, but they seem like they are also working on that. so im not worried.
i used GW2 as an example of “not only endgame matters” neither do i think it should in Boundless, i think that the best part would be the journey through the levels/tiers, being able to fight titans and protectors and a variety of creatures. There will ofc also be exploring and i really look forward to seeing awesome player made cities, structures and shops. i dont DENY that there will be building elements in the game and that creativity will definitely shape it up to be an awesome game.But sandbox MMORPG doesnt mean that its JUST a sandbox, after all there is also the MMORPG part of it. It’s work all around, indeed, but they have some pretty cool ideas.
lastly. Again The tiers is the gameplay loop made by the developers
Also dont worry about posting longer posts, its nice to see you put some effort and thought into it
First of all 6 skills wouldn’t work on a controller at the same time as the normal controls like in minecraft unless there was a dedicated button to switch to a combat mode or automatically switching on initialisation of combat perhaps, forgoing the need for such a button. The reason it is basic is because it’s something to iterate on, those are minimum expectations and more is better I wouldn’t hate it or love it.
A skill system is something I would love but is dependent on execution, something similar to dragon age inquisition or borderlands. You said all skills are skill shots, so I’m assuming all skills are combat oriented ones (in your view?). There are other options(to a skill system) if you want to go down that route, and even if you do it’s quite hard to change if you ever want to so the devs should be adamant that this is what they want. We must also understand how much work we ask the devs to do if they choose to implement such a system.
Off the top of my head my take on a skill system is this. I would implement a class system with unique skills to each class. If you want to change class you can through a new character or some price.
The classes would be the typical Mage/Swordsman/Archer with a possible fourth Mechanic (combat oriented of course) with more classes down the line which then can specialise in certain areas to turn into different classes, for example a mage could specialise and turn to specific elements or styles of play, becoming a healer or a mage of manipulating enemies. For each specialisation there could be 10 or so skills with different variants/tiers. Some specialisations may have to be unlocked through difficult combat trials.
Then comes the question of how do you make something “difficult”, using large numbers doesn’t help and other options require a lot of time and work. I think what you want is a mix, but it is a big ask. If the devs want to try it they can go ahead, but I can’t imagine MMO combat which is engaging and difficult that won’t be taxing on the devs.
You can’t really sum up this kind of thing in a thread so I think I should probably stop and leave it up to the devs.
This idea of combat is demanding from the devs, it is a good idea (end result) but not that reasonable (to ask of the devs) in my opinion.
In a vote the vast majority voted “I would like to mix and match my own class” over “i would like to pick from a preset of classes” But yeah, combat mode switch i also think is neccesary, that is one thing trove got right though and i could easily imagine such a system.
Its pretty great you mentioned controllers, its not something i often think about but i also see that they would have to make some kind of clever system if we need better and more specialized combat.
Basically you mentioned 3 classes, imagine if instead of having those 3 classes it was just 9 skill lines which would have been in the 3 classes anyways. some sort of mix and match class system which gives freedom of choice. This would also give the choice to make BAD builds ofc, but that is part of it in my opinion.
They promised that they would mix MMORPG and the minecraft ish sandbox elements, sadly they have mostly focused on the building for now. The entire meat of the game is going to lie in their progression system, like how you progress with everything. im a big fan of “learning by doing” so to level up swordsmanship you have to earn X amount of exp while using sword for example. i feel that building in the sense of placing blocks shouldnt be restricted, but on the other hand there should also be building blocks which has to be crafted from specific mats, dont think you should be given everything by start.
Mix and match could work on one hand but does have consequences if not executed well.
Experience always felt a bit tacky to me, I’m not against it but if it were there it would be something I would put up with.
There is also the typical problem of stacking blocks and firing from above at enemies. There are ways to fix that but it would also affect other aspects.
Yeah this and a few other block abuse problems is why i would highly recommend a “switch to combat mode” so you cant just physically block creatures, but these things are really tricky.
