NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, these changes were good!
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We never even got a chance to test it. Personally Iāve never made a tool with quirks and defects and I am already forging end game toolsā¦ just like silver and gold there is problems with mid game progression that everyone seems to skip pass end game.
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@rossstephens thank you for bringing this forward and asking for opinions. I like most of whatās was proposed here and there has been some healthy discussion with the normal loud mouth negatives thrown in for good measure. I totally agree that forgeing for early game is near impossible as there are some key ingredients that require gathering and hunting on T4+ worlds. The proposed changes to the level one boon compounds would at least make it possible for someone to play around and begin to learn the system. However it is so complex and the RNG makes it even more so. An in game tutorial for forgeing would be benificial to the new forger.
The other major problem that has been touched on by several people is the exodus of the player base. There needs to be something done to reinvigorate the current player base and bring in more new players to replace those that have left. What those actions are are I really donāt have a clue. One thing that people will scream from the mountain top is to get more new content. They donāt realize the amount of work that entails. Bringing in new content that is balanced and fits in with what is already in game is more difficult than just balancing the current content.
Please keep looking over making balance changes to the forgeing system. Reach out to the whole player base if possible not just the few that frequent these forums. The negativity here has driven out a lot of good people.
1 Like
Some of the quirks could be fun such as the jump randomly or even some of the defects to troll people with such as doing massive reduced range on grapple and reel speed and hopping people donāt notice when you give them out to friends to mess with:
The issue is it would create such a mess with so many items late game being useless with many of these or a nightmare to find ones that actually can function and even make you wonder why they are a thing for end game items.
Do you even play this game? A t5 or t6 gem hammer is definitely worth 25-35K right now. I have happily paid that on more than one occasion. One such hammer nets me about 1000 gems of my choosing which nets me back every coin I spent and a lot more.
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āWorth itā is relative. There is no cash in the economy right now and wont be until footfall is fixed. If you are putting forged items out to sell, and they are not selling, your prices are too high.
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Personally, I donāt know if these changes are good or badā¦ I donāt like the RNG gameplay and so havenāt participated in forging after Iād spent enough time getting to understand the basics and concluding it wasnāt for me.
That being said, I recall that back when the forge first went live several people (myself included) put our dislike about RNG systems out there, and that we felt itād be better if we could pay more resources to overcome the RNG. To answer us, someone rightly responded that if we had too much control, weād all end up with ridiculous tools. To make the point, they posted short video up of themselves using an extra damage, AoE tool (I donāt even think it was fast), and relayed one of the Devsā (James, I believe) response theyād got through discord which was essentially: āItās entertaining to watch, and it would be way OP if it was going to be common placeā.
It is now common place. Something relatively drastic does need to happen. It might not be nice for end game players to lose their clearly unintended frequency of āGod-toolsā, but the longer is stays like it is, the worse it will be to try and fix later and the more entrenched the established players will become in the notion that the tools they have now are fine / balanced.
Please do continue working towards this end.
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This nails everything.
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Then wipe the game, if they make such a dramatic change. Donāt just remove a broken system, FIX it, by resetting the game back to release, make everyone start over, and redo the entire game with the new balance.
Cause this is the same issue with bomb mining issue. Where people abuse the hell out of Bomb Mining, collecting hundreds of thousands of resources. Then the change took away Bomb Mining, but the people that abused it still got to play, and still kept all those resources.
It āBalancedā the game. But those that used and abuse it got rewarded, and those that didnāt, or came after, were punished for not abusing it themselves.
If they want such a Dramatic change to the balance. One that EVERYONE has been using since Release of the game, and even months BEFORE the release. Then they should wipe the whole game, and make everyone restart with the new balance. Remove all resources, all builds, all portals, Everything.
At THAT point, we will see how much the people like this new āBalanceā to the game.
This is just my novice opinion. But it seems like the problem is the game has been balanced towards overpowered tools.
AoE uber tools should be extremely rare. On the flip side, you should never actually NEED tools that good. Base tools, mined and crafted from the corresponding tier, should be completely sufficient.
But the game has been balanced, for totally understandable reasons, toward miners wielding Mjolnir and flinging bags of cheat bombs.
So while forging, IMO, probably needs a nerf, the worlds somehow need a nerf as well.
And we need footfall fixed.
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lol funny, because it seems alot ppl bought all available hammers in fear that hammers like these wont exist in the future
hahaha
3 Likes
1x3 is not very good, its passable. Any aoe without damage isnt much better than a non aoe with dmg as well.
But naturally the more you can take at once the better why we use 3x3 with dmg
Not entirely true, cuz skills, brews can boost power. However there is nothing the helps with AOE effects beyond forge.
Indeed. This is something else I bet people havenāt put much thought into either. I was only able to stand Gem farming twice, to get 282 gems once, because I used a 3x3 hammer that could 1 shot T5 blocks. without needing potions, pies, or anything else but the hammer. If I needed more stuff? If the hammer wasnāt 3x3? If it took more than 1 hit? I would have hated it, and gave up and not done it.
The issue, I donāt think is that the game is balanced for 3x3 1 shotting hammers. The issue, is that those features have been in the game for so long, and people have in their mindset what the value, grind, worth, time investment and feeling of the game is based on that.
Then this update wants to remove that.
To put it into perspective, itās like Playing Dark Souls for so long, then an update happens and suddenly every Shield in the game is Nerfād so that there are no more 100% blocking shields anymore, and instead the highest shield is 1 end game shield that blocks only 75% of damage.
Instead of people making builds with dozens of 100% def shields, now that 1 shield is clearly the best, and people that liked the 100% blocking and had builds around them, no longer want to play the game.
It would be the same thing in this game. People have been so used to it, the economy, playstyle, and āgrindā has been defined by it. (Which is why the answer most people have for those that complain is āSave up 30k and buy a 3x3 Forged Gem Hammer.ā). And now they are removing that.
This doesnāt just change Forging, it makes the game as a whole, and the grind in it, so much worse. For those at end game, nothing changes, so they donāt care. But those in low or mid tier, or new players, the game becomes 100 times harder. All in the name of āBalanceā.
This is why I said to @Marrash to have them wipe the game. Wipe everything and force people to play right from lvl 1 all over again with this new change. And we will see, just how much people like this new āChangeā that the Devs wanted to add in. Because then it would effect everyone, and not just the new players, which it would drive away.
wipe is not an option, as we saw on the other thread where someone asked that hypothetical question for a whipe endet up with the most ppl (including me) would left the game 4ever.
well, and a dev stated that there will be no wipe ever, so i think we can rely on that.
i think it should be just possible to create silver or titan hammesr with like 3x1 aoes or damage and things, instead of removing old stuff they just could add a lower tier of all the forging items, a tier that is creatable just with items from tier 1-3 worlds.
maybe those items could never make a 3x3 effect, and not so much damage or have more chances for quircks or whatever.
so new players could start lower at the ladder to get up with forging, high end players can keep playing as they did
and also this would increase the chance for dedicated tools, ive running around allmost all the day scanning shops to find some titan hammers and shovels with 3x1 or 3x3, because i dont want to waste 20k worth gem tools on tier1-2 worlds.
it felt like there is no market for those lower tier forged tools, and the reason is: the efford in forging is actually higher than the efford in creating a gem tool.
so allmost nobody is creating titan or even silver/gold forged tools.
so to solve this: add a low tier forging item class that is very likely creating tunneler, random and 3x1 effects (in case of hammers/shovels/axes) and allmost dont can result in cross or 3x3. (just to use a sample, this should ofc apply to all effects) but the most important thing: make those items possible to get without the need to travel to t5 worlds and get oneshot as a level 30 player by some random hopper.
it should be possible to start very basic forging stuff without to visit any world that needs a protection, and without to run around 5 hours for forging a masscraft of those tools. and without having all skill points invested into forgery.
with this thing, players would maybe just forge themself some silver hammer a bit to oneshot on t3 or to have a small AOE on theyr iron hammer.
would bring more diversity into the tool market (because now its just 2 kinds of tools: anything not gem, forged gem).
Agree the quirks at the moment are at best defective defects lol. would love to see actual quirky behaviour, with some positive and some negative. this would mean sometimes daring to push up them quirk points as it might add a 4th mini-boonā¦ random hookshot, accidental double-tap, vampire tools that lose % dmg but add a bit of health each use, cumilative energy drain until you rest the 5s to regenā¦ things you can work around, cant depend on, but that dont break the tool.
5 Likes
Itās fine to edit the early forging and such. But who cares if Draining is strong. Itās also costly. Instead of making endgame forged tools harder to make and much more expensive, leave it alone. We donāt need things to be more difficult then it already is. I personally like endgame forging where it is. Early game forging like on iron tools are the only part that needs some work. And an earlier post said it perfectly. Give earlier tools a multiplier to what they do.
Like leave titanium and gem tools at 100%, but increase say, stone, iron, silver, and gold to higher amounts. Like Stone at 250% boosts, iron at 200, silver and 170, and gold at like 130. That way same materials would be easier for lower players to make strong tools of their level.
example: an iron tool would get double points into boons then a gem tool would.
2 Likes
Okay, Iām posting this after the changes have been at least temporarily cancelled. I think this was the right move and now itās time to think about the Forge and what can be changed. I think there is a general consensus that Draining Compound + Vigour Catalyst are too good. They crowd out all other possibilities.
So, whatās the problem with the proposed changes? In my opinion, it is that it adds rng. As players we HATE rng, especially in the area of crafting. We want the items we make to be the result of our hard work and skill, not because we hit the jackpot on a slot machine. Every aspect of the current forging meta besides the raw power of Draining Compound and Vigour Catalyst is about reducing RNG. I think players will deal with a decrease in raw power much more readily than an increase in RNG. Thatās why I think that rather than increasing the diversity of ingredients used in forging, People would just switch to Pure Boon Compound. I think people would rather have a rank 150 hammer that they can produce reliably then a rank 260 hammer that would include random quirks/defects.
The power difference between a hammer that includes quirks and defects would have to be dramatic before youād start to have players willing to have them on their tools. What can be done then? I think to make people willing to forge items with quirks and defects, you have to reduce the rng involved. Here are a couple ways that might be done:
Expand the number if item slots on the forge: This would allow players room to include solvents, Deconstruction Resin, and other items that reduce the risk involved with quirks and defects while still having the items to help them get the boons they want.
New items: For instance a gum or paste that makes it so you choose from a small list when you roll a quirk or a boon rather then having it randomly assigned. Another similar idea would be to give the quirks and defects types and make gums that increase the chances of you rolling certain types of quirks and defects. Or a solvent that removes a quirk or defect and makes it so that one cannot be reapplied during the current forging session.
New Skills: More forging masteries could be added that help you better control your forging results. The current list of points you need to maximize your effectiveness as a forger is pretty low, and I think players would enjoy the opportunity to dive deeper into that spec. For instance: a mastery that lets you remove one defect of your choice when you set a tool or weapon.
The overall point here is that forging does probably need adjustment; and that adjustment should probably be an over-all nerf; but if you nerf it in a way that increases the sense of skill and control expressed in forging I think you will bring a lot more players along with you than the recently retracted set of changes that would increase the rng and slot-machine feeling of forging.
2 Likes
My girlfriend posted a suggestion a while back about this.
Make the gums specifically based on the boons, and just make the gums very costly to craft. Remove RNG completely and just make it extremely material intensive. That way you make what you want, and it still costs time or money to make. Neither of us ever liked the RNG option. She would rage like mad when she would keep getting stupid glow boon, even after using the item to remove it. Itās really bad with Axe.
3 Likes
Just reduce the vigour and stability cost of boon removal solven, defect renoval solvent and quirk removal solvent and reduce materials needed. Then most of the changes could work.
If it has to be soon that is. If not i rather like some of my other suggestions.