Poll: Crafting Skills

I’m sorry, that was not meant as **** you I don’t believe you. You genuinely peaked my curiosity about the possibility of evidence based research on MMO’s. I had never even though about that before. I asked because there is a ton of garbage on Google so I wanted to know we were reading the same thing.

This guys training and methods are legitimate, and WOW! This is awesome. I love evidence and analytics.

This warrants its own post. These finding are incredible, insightful, and fun to read. Not only did I learn more about where I fit into the puzzle but a lot more about the people that I playing with.

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I’m sorry that it seemed like it came off that way to me, when you didnt mean it that way. So, we’re both ok :+1: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

For reference, if anyone is interested, my Bartle Quotient (ask Google) was EASK with E-75%, A-46%, S-24%, and K-6%. (Explorer, Achiever, Socializer, Killer)

Bartle was doing online gaming psychology/research… back in the 90’s, or even earlier? Nick Yee was late-ish 90’s?
EDIT: At least ‘85, for Bartle, maybe earlier. Back in the days of MUDs, according to what I could find.
(Yes, I actually played MUDs. On BBS’. On dial-up modems. And we had to walk uphill, in the snow, both ways!)

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“Crafting outside the Skill system … with skills being bought”? Does this mean being bought with Coin? There’s an answer to the money-sink-(instead of hoarding it) problem!
This might enrage the Solo Player like myself as we don’t have a guild to pool cash and buy quickly the jucier perks (like Bulk and Mass crafting) but then again I’m also the Patient Player who will eventually unlock whatever-damn-wall the game throws at me! :grin:

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Replying and taking this to a new thread. Were going to have some real fun with this…

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I agree with the progression idea. I have been thinking of the crafting guild and other guild ideas for awhile. I’m waiting to see how they decide to do skills and specialization. If they eliminate specialization making a single character able to do anything they feel like then it eliminates what I have been thinking of as the specialization halls within a guild. If everyone can do everything then there is no economy and there are no masters of anything. Spend the time, you have the skills and have no need for other Oortians. I was planning on upgrading, but, as soon as they said something about making it possible to do everything with a single character I decided to wait until I see what actually happens. Right now the one character idea has me thinking there’s better places to spend more gaming time and money on as they have better skills and it’s impossible to be a master of everything. In real life people don’t do everything themselves, they depend on craftsmen, companies that specialize, shopkeepers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. The closer to real life in that regard a game is, the better it is to me and the more certain I am the “master craftsman” has the actual knowledge and abilities to do as I wish to hire them for. The more a game becomes one person is a so called master of everything the more certain I am I can do it better myself rather than depend on what someone else really has the abilities and experience to accomplish what I want.

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Alright. I’m finally home and ready to spill so many words in the name of justice and crafting freedom. This issue has been broached so many times before. It has been done in so many ways. But, one of the myriad posts says the same basic thing. We are not happy with the crafting.

This ties into the skill and character progression, preventing a feeling of accomplishment in the game, and a staying power that would normally be made available in a massively multiplayer game. Currently, there is no actual reason to keep playing if you have already built everything, and there’s no reason to keep building everything if you are trying to progress. The absolute worst part of this situation is that if you want to sandbox the bantha poodoo out of this game, doing things like building monoliths to our collective sins, you can’t do that without crafting skills. It’s a catch 22 at it’s finest, creating a need to do things you don’t want to do to do things you want to do. Like work. So, where it would normally capture the attention of the most dedicated player, there is little incentive to actually keep that level of dedication in the long run. There isn’t a multiple day long endeavor, or collection quest, or anything that would normally give reason for continued activity.

Now, I know that you are all asking, “Why in the hell is this related to crafting skills?” and I’ll tell you : Because crafting skills are 100% tied to character development in an MMO. If there was an opportunity for us to advance along the lines of limited creation, such as armorsmith, tailor, etc, then there would be a reason for progressive character development. As for the roleplay aspect of it all, the skills we DO have are what I like to call “base skills”. All of them. If they are required to accomplish feat that are made available to your character, regardless of the build, then all the skills are needed, or rerolls should be unlocked, permanently.

I have been outspoken on this issue since I bought this game, advocating a revamp of the basic mechanics for a while now. I think that specialization would be preferred, in the long run, but it’s not the path that the developers seemed to have in mind. So, the only other option to this would be something along the lines of a job system, allowing each character to freely switch between classes on the fly. But, then again, if you do allow that, what’s the point of alts?

Alts are a basic requirement for continued longevity and team play. Locking one character to a role, I.E. Tank or healer makes it a need for a more dedicated player to create more than one character, or become a master of their own fate and harness their potential to the fullest. As it stands, alts simply don’t cut it. This is BECAUSE of the crafting system, forcing you to have a character that can create all the items at the cost of EVERY other skill available. This enfeebled townsperson behaves as a bookmark, just getting online and remaining active until the resources are used up,to be religated to the waiting room until something else needs to be crafted. So my crafter character has no intrinsic development, or opportunities for advancement unless I have a constant stream of supplies.

So this brings up another aspect of how the crafting system is nerfing character experience. If I create a crafter, just for that reason, I need supplies that they can’t get themselves. This either requires me to create an alt, who will naturally develop at a faster rate than my crafter, due to the feat system, or to get someone else to gather for me. But hiring or befriending a gatherer is something that depreciates my crafter character further. Marginalizing profits due to sharing of resources and crafted goods. It’s just another trap. There can’t be any other way for us to actually accomidate this style of play, realistically. Being beholden to someone is the fastest way to get me disinterested in a game. I want my own actions to hold their own merits, not be based on the collective actions of a community.

Games like Helldivers, which is amazing, has a system in place where there is a community contribution towards a war effort. That makes individual actions less impact in the long run, since you could feasibly join at the end of a war effort and contribute the base minimum, reaping the maximum reward. Or, conversely, you could join too early, and then be forced to carry the weight of an entire community, pushing against the grain towards an imaginary goal post that is constantly on the move. So, why does this example go into crafting? Again, because you can’t just do anything. You can’t just wake up and craft hammers, or whatever, because gathering, buying, trading, and other issues stand in the way, based on the willingness of the community that actively determines the value of your actions.

I have so many ideas on how to fix this problem, but the best one is to abandon this loosey goosey method of gameplay and simplify and streamline the skills. Give basic advancement tiers, based on level. Give stats based on level. Create classes with unique and interesting skills. Create interesting crafts and recipes that would make me want to craft them, just to try them, rather than going for the “best tool” and forgoing the rest. I would love to hear what you all have to say about this.

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I think some skills should be further added to the default recipes pool, but in exchange maybe have some really difficult recipes hidden in some form of challenge the player has to overcome (Level 1,2,3…etc Meteorites or Titans).

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I would like to get further clarification on the difference between:

Spending skill points to unlock recipes is a good way to enable specialization in crafting.
&
The basic recipes should be unlocked by everyone, but more advanced recipes should be bought with skill points.

I think many of us voting for the former also agree that the basic recipes should be available to newer players in order to not make the first few hours of the game daunting.

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I like this very mucho. I like having 3 types of character. Like ALL mmo’s there is a crafter, hunter, druid, tank, healer etc. I liked very much to have diff looks for each character and names of each.

So to me this is a perfect idea Karko. IF one wants to only grind one character, then one could spend time across the gambit of skills on just a single character. If other people like myself want to spend certain skill experience on certain characters only, then we can still have our multiple toons. I myself would choose this coarse so I can keep inventory and gear loaded appropriately without constantly changing everything when I felt like hunting.

Only thing is that MMO’s with multi classes can max level a character within each class. The priest/healer whatever, can max level being just that. Boundless however, you will never max level just by crafting. Unless you play this for ten years straight.

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So, what if the Core group of skills had Basic Crafting as it is (but that would include basic cooking in furnace) and some sort of Basic Machine Crafting (allowing building all machines apart from Forge as well as craft all basic recipes in them: so, no separate skill to build a machine and separate to craft things).

Then in Crafting group there would be Advanced Machine Crafting (opening advanced recipes in machines unlocked previously and allowing to build Forge and craft everything in it; also unlocking furnace recipes like glass and cooking buff foods, so all the persisting and floating etc.) and Bulk/Mass Crafting (self-explanatory).

Last step is the specialisation or unique crafting skills in separate skill group being unlocked a bit further down the path. Wouldn’t open any new machines or recipes, just give skills allowing creating items with bonuses (in case of items with stats, such as tools and weapons) or additional patterns and colours and looks (in case of decorative building blocks, clothing, furniture etc. or maybe even items creating buffs like healing etc. that can be placed inside beacons to give builds actual function). Examples: Hammer Forger, Slingbow Crafter, Forge Master (better chance of successful upgrading tools, a few unique upgrades not available from Advanced Machine Crafting?), Interior Designer (extra props and decor) etc. Also including Power Coils Crafting here.

So, unlocking crafting would happen in 3 steps:
Core Skills: 2 skills (Basic Crafting and Basic Machine Crafting) covered in Tutorial and covering not just Workbench and furnace as it is now, but also basic recipes from all machines (apart from Forge) and basic cooking in Furnace for starting characters.
Crafting Skills: 3 skills (Advanced Machine Crafting and Bulk/Mass Crafting) covering Forge and unlocking advanced recipes in all machines that weren’t covered plus allowing Bulk and Mass Crafting.
Crafting Mastery: several skills (Power Coil Crafting plus all imaginable unique bonuses/recipes unlocking skills) - cost of those skills should be such that no character could unlock them all. To be true, ideally one character would only really be able to cover Power Coils (obvious choice) and 1-2 specialisations (like Hammer or Slingbow or Furniture or Cooking special skills) - imagining that there would be no more than 10 -ish skills like that. This way crafters become unique characters offering unique items of just few types and those looking for such items wont be able to get them from just one crafter.

Crafting the way we know would be covered in 2 easy steps with 5 skills - Tutorial asks for rather symbolic price in skill-points and advanced part would have moderate cost, so affordable for even none-crafting character builds. It’s only the last group that would make a character a real crafter as opposite to hunter, miner, builder, explorer or generalist (skill point cost would have to be really high there).

1 Like

How many people just clicked the option that had the most votes?

This forum needs to be expressed more to all players when they are starting out. Only 89 ppl voting here.

Idea: rather than lock skills, focus on efficiency.

Let a character obtain all abilities, but make it hard to become efficient at all but a few.

Mechanics:


Break skills out into categories (mostly as they are today): combat, defense, trading, crafting, building, exploration, gathering, etc. Within each category…

…it takes a short amount of time (few hours) to unlock all the abilities in that category. Aka a tutorial (much like we have today, but a bit more explicit).

  • The tutorial process is effectively free (maybe the base skills unlock directly via the tutorial feats?)

  • For example: crafters end up learning all recipes, builders learn to access all chisel types, fighters can use all weapon abilities, etc.


Once the base abilities are unlocked, players can then focus on the efficiency of that category, by investing time and tradeoffs into the categories they are most interested in…

…each category has an array of efficiency skills that players can choose to unlock.

  • For example: crafters can reduce the time it takes to craft, amount of materials required, etc. defense improves damage reduction, atmospheric protection, etc.

…skill points are earned as they are today, and each category’s skills become (exponentially) more expensive the more you invest into that category.

…it should be practically impossible to max out all categories in any reasonable amount of time (years/decades).

…there can still be interesting capstone skills here. For example

  • give gathers a skill that causes tools to affect two blocks deep

To encourage variety in the player base, introduce the ability for players to choose a small number of categories to specialize in. Each category specialized in reduces the growth curve for skills in that category.

For example, without specialization, each skill might cost <base_price> * 1.25 ^ <num_in_category>. But with specialization, the multiplier might drop to 1.1 - which makes skills for that category considerably less expensive.

Aka, you become more efficient at learning the skills for the categories you want to specialize in.


Honestly, this seems to be pretty close to the existing system, with the exception of the specialization idea.

Implied: no skill cap, and skill point earnings must grow at a slower rate than prices increase

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You mean, like classes.

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No; I’m talking about a single character that can do it all, but is more efficient at some of it

Like a class?

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Maybe I should be more specific to help you understand the scope of my question.

Take a MMO that has been around for a long time. You pick your class – whatever that may be. Then you can pick from a list of professions, for crafting skills. But you also get base skills, like fishing, cooking, and first aid. So, essentially you “CAN” do it all, but you also can’t. The class has nothing to do with the professions. However! There are racial bonuses, and adept crafts people for a given profession. So…

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I’d just have one request regarding the rework of crafting skills / skills in general:
Could we get Skillpoints separately for each Category?

I think the current setup tempts new players (and I fell for that as well) to think that, if you want to play as crafter, you better spend all your points into crafting (like we’re accustomed to from other games) only to be frustrated when realizing that you need to spread your points in a very particular way to end up with a feasible character.

In my imagination a max level player would have obtained enough skillpoints within each category to unlock ~2/3 of the respective perks. So you end up with characters that are not locked up behind one specific activity while also maintaining variety among max level characters.

What would be helpful to have right from the beginning is a skill tree for each profession available that shows how many total points are possible and then you can plan your points before you even begin or after a few levels. Total available points should be enough to have one profession at max, all necessary general skills (like some amount of warp distance, stamina regeneration and health) plus enough to fill the remaining professions through the low level or a little into advanced) level. Then players can choose one tree to fill (or none if they want to bring everything fairly high but nothing maxed) and have the general skills to whatever level they like with remaining points divided in other professions however they choose. As long as people can see it, then they can plan it and make their character decent at everything but master of nothing, or they can be a master at something and competent at everything at least through low level (say in weapons and equipment steel would be a good limit). But don’t make it where every character can do everything without any interaction with other people or alts. Preferably there aren’t enough alts available to cover all professions so that everyone participates in the economy. If people don’t have to buy then most won’t buy and there won’t be anyone to sell to so we may as well just have NPC shopkeepers then.

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i think you have got a nice point… if i’m not mistaken taking the skill tree as it is now as i understood (with some skill directly available to spend points and others to be related to a skill that you have to take before)

to make an example: i can make an hunter really proficent investing some point in fast block positioning and grapple fastness (as i can go and hunt hanging from a tree or building fast barricades to stop a charging mob or the shot of a tentacle/spitter instead of investing everything in vitality

[EDIT: reguarding the economy i do not agree, people have also to figgure out if they really want to be a selling crafter with a shop or a face to face merchant, or if they want to go for tasks (like: hi everybody, in need of anything?) i mean, you have to cut trough and make your own niche in the market, and compete… being a market actor it’s not a class or profession you can do with skill point, you need the “market predatory sense” :smiley: :japanese_ogre: :smiley:

I think its a bit of a stretch to think that everyone would end up doing everything themselves. Not only is there the time constraint with this, but also, not everyone enjoys every aspect (mining, treecutting, gathering leaves, combat for drops, etc). I think some people will gladly pay to avoid certain aspects.

I have the ability with alts to do everything now, and yet, I still buy a lot of things. Sometimes because its a good deal, sometimes because its just easier than the time or effort it would take me to do it, and sometimes because there are just days I don’t feel like mining (or whatever) for hours. I’ve probably made a couple million or two just from sales at this point (not counting feats), and yet I only have a couple 100k left. I’d say the market is working about as well as it can with the limited number of players.

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