It’s a complex topic so I will do it step by step to make my posts shorter and easier to read.
It’s an important subject - one that has been talked through quite a bit while the objective progression have been announced (Progression & Experience Gaining Changes).
It was said that after some testing we would have a chance to discuss if planned changes work or not, and that a come back to the old system of progression (still available in live version) would be still possible.
I feel it’s about time to put some feedback together now, since we’ve had the objective-based progression in game for quite a while. I have noticed some players voicing they concerns already that seem to be in line with mine.
So, dear devs and players - I hope we will have a constructive and fruitful exchange of our opinions and ideas here. I will start in the next post.
So, after a couple of weeks spent playing the testing version of Boundless I can say one thing for sure: I like the direction the game is taking with the skill progression system in general.
It gives it much needed depth in terms of what a character can or cannot do and how different skill-sets players can chose. I also like the work put in tutorial and objectives so far and i’m not about to complain about things that sure will get tweaked and perfected.
I will focus on something else instead - will the objective-based progression be enough? Even with more work put to it. So, I don’t want to discuss the current state of the testing version - this is all work in progress and is, understandably, bugged and unbalanced. I just want to go back to the old question - what kind of progression will serve the game best?
Here’s my experience with the current system of objectives:
I found myself postponing and limiting what I want to do in the world, because that would leave me behind in terms of skill progression. So I found myself doing objectives I didn’t want to just to get to the next level and get another skill.
If I really wanted to do something of my choice and not to lose on xp, I had to check available objectives and pick one or two I would be able to finish while doing my own thing. Time consuming and boring after a while.
To shorten the experience of unwanted objectives I would look for the most efficient way to grind through some of the tasks (like placing 100 blocks of foliage in my beacon - simply have one block in my left hand and a tool in the other hand, then place the block and destroy it, place it again and break it, and so on until you get the objective done). And I’m not that kind of player, who would focus on fastest possible leveling and care only about stats. I spend a lot of time doing things that are useless from progression/gameplay-efficiency point of view. And still I found myself grinding my xp through shortcuts like that. It’s not a good sign if a game makes you to do silly things and takes you away from experiencing the world.
I know its still early stage and tutorial/objective tree can look completely different. However, no matter how you put it together I believe that progression through objectives is not enough. Even if you tweak the entire system you’ll still be left with just one way to progress while other activities will mean staying behind. And that disrupts player’s freedom.
Focus on objectives as the only modus operandi will lead to painfull grinding. Yes, there are players out there that only enjoy grinding and maximizing level-up (output) from available playing time (input). But all the real sandbox enthusiasts would just want to do whatever they like in the world and still be able to progress (at whatever speed)
The best thing, in my opinion, is to mix progression based on objectives with one based on using the skills. That way players would always progress somehow, even if they don’t follow objectives/missions/tasks or whatever you call them.
The perfect sandbox is, I think so anyway, one that lets you progress through it no matter what you do.
TUTORIAL/OBJECTIVES SYSTEM
Long story short I can see a need for 2 kinds of objectives. The first one is in game already but it needs tweaking as a lot of objectives become available too late, when players are already after trying things on their own and won’t be that interested in repeating it again. (Example: objectives to craft first copper tools, objective to build workbench - both happen way after players can see them in game and most likely try the out on their own without tutorial guidance).
So:
Tutorial/tip system objectives. This type would be bound to availability of tools, materials, actions etc. so anytime something new can be done by a player, an objective would become available to teach him the new stuff. There is no need to multiply those objectives and repeating similar tasks with just bigger numbers (gather 100 and then 1000 of coal or kill 50 and then 200 of spitters etc). Give players a chance to learn and get coins and experience by doing a certain kind of objective just once. So, after getting the first set of slingbows give a player an objective to kill 10 wildstock or spitters or whatever. But after that don’t follow with objectives asking to kill 50 or 100 and more. Only teach new thing through an objective and then let players do what they want, otherwise they will have to do things they don’t want to do, just to level up. (Instead of the following the initial objective with higher tier of the same, offer something else - achievements *).
Specific missions/tasks - these would like be given by players or guilds. They would be simply based on their needs (so a guild could ask for 1000 medium coal or maybe 200 of machined silver or fuel for portals or even to join a ride/hunt and reach a certain goal during; a player building something would ask for 250 blocks of red gleam or 60 blocks of lustrous wood from Nasharil or simply a set of gem tools etc.). That kind of objectives have different feeling to it as you are answering to players demand in the world and they would vary as much as different players/guilds need may vary day to day.
*Achievements were available in live version a few months ago. I think they could come back and replace high tier objectives (the ones that are just repeating the basic objectives, only asking for higher numbers). Players would get their freedom back if they could do what they want and complete achievements giving them coins and xp. So, if there is a ready system of goals (like steam game achievements), landmarks in one’s activity you may say actually, a player would have a message every now and again saying that he mined his 100th, 10.000th block of copper or crafted his 100th and 1000th item through his workbench or traveled 10.000 meters or discovered 10, 20 and 100 regions. It would happen itself as a byproduct of activities chosen by players. It would even be interesting if the achievements were invisible and the full list of them unknown to players, so they can enjoy discovering them through natural and free gameplay.
Last but not least - going back to skill-use-based progression.
It’s much needed, in my opinion, to go back to skill-use based progression that we had before (or still have in live version). So, players would complete tasks/missions, finish objectives and level up that way. No problem - it’s an interesting system and looking good and better every week in testing version.
However, at the same time they would also collect xp points whenever they use a skill (be it jumping or shooting, or mining, or crafting). These xp would go to the class the used skill belongs to (so, exactly the way it still is in live version). Whenever a player levels up through skill use, he would get skill points to use in that particular class, so they would only be used to learn skills from that particular class (while the objective-bound levelling up would still get him general skill points that can be used to learn skills from any class).
EXAMPLE: A player is progressing to level 7. Whenever he completes an objective/mission/task, he gets xp points that go to general experience. When he gets enough xp points he gets to the new level and is rewarded with skillpoints. Let’s call them general skill points. That’s the way it works now and there’s no need to change it.
New (old) thing would be this - whenever a player takes an action he gets xp points that go to class experience - the way we know from current live version. If you break blocks you get xp points to miner or gatherer etc. Skill classes would have their separate xp bars that would fill up with xp got that way. When the xp bar is filled u, a player doesnt get to the new level (that is done through general experience) - only gets class skill points. They work like general skill points, but they can only be used to learn skills from the specific class they belong to.
Haven’t tried the new system yet. But remember there’s plenty of reasons explaining why it’s gone to objectives based progress. And that its gonna maybe implement not opt in objectives, which seem very similar to the achievements you’re suggesting.
I’m just clarifying, as the plans for objectives are much more developed than they are in the test version. I see many iterations before we reach a very good system.
I’m putting off the test branch, until I can condition myself to only follow what the tutorial tells me, and not do anything from what I already know.
when I say “grind” I don’t mean it’s slow - only that it’s something you must do to progress, while you would actually love to do something else, like freely build, explore etc.; when you don’t have full freedom in the game and you are pushed to do something to be able to progress and get better, then any speed seems slow; its a mental time bending
THIS!
These are my basically my exact thoughts and feelings about progression. I 100% agree that we need general exp from objectives, missions and achievements and also skill exp directly from skills. I think that would overall be the best way to do it in this game and help it truly feel ‘Boundless’.
The ability to progress freely while also being able to set objectives/missions is perfect.
And the hidden achievements is a must now that you have me thinking about it. That would be awesome!
And player/guild given missions would easily be one of the best additions to the game overall. Exp could be given from set numbers in the system based one what it is your doing. (Turning in X material gives Y exp) and coin could be decided by the player giving the quest.
This would really help the RPG feel in my opinion.
So the small suggestion is to add xp bar to the skills view in GUI. Other than that the picture may make it simpler to see what I meant by double objective - skill progression.
So, the top area would show xp bar and available skill points collected through objectives. It would be called general skillpoints.
Any of the class skills areas would show their own xp bars that would fill up through using skills. It doesnt show what level you are progressing to, because it doesnt cause leveling - only gives skillpoints at the end. It will also display available class skillpoints, repeat available general skillpoints displayed on top and show the total available to a player to spend in the open class skill tree (so the player doesnt have to do the math himself, GUI would always show total general and class skillpoints whenever a particular class skill tree is open).
One idea: Split objectives into “passive” and “active” objectives. Under this model:
Passive objectives would complete automatically, without having to be explicitly tracked by the player. These are reserved for the more grindy & generic objectives (chop 50 trunks, dig 100 grass blocks, kill 100 monsters, etc). Passive objectives probably reward small amounts of xp, and larger amounts of coin.
Active objectives would require the player to activate them as we do today. These would have more varied/interesting requirements (dealing damage without dying, tutorial objectives, exploring worlds, etc). Active objectives probably reward large amounts of xp, and smaller amounts of coin.
The intention here is to make the rote objectives more exciting by making them less critical to track and grind towards. Rather, they would be (for most players) nice bonuses as they go about their business in the game. Active objectives would then be what players focus on to progress their characters (and require more depth/character optimization)
I like these suggestions. But hiding achievements really a must? The community will make achievement charts anyway, and achievement hunters maybe would like to know all.
I think it would be fun for the first wave of players to discover these achievements before they are widely known. Which is why I think they should be hidden.
So I was linked here by @boundmore after he discovered and replied to my topic, and once more I seem to have proven my forum-searching skills to be below mediocre at most. once again I need to say I’m sorry for duplicating topics that already exists on the forum.
But with the damage already being done, and with my topic being such a massive, constantly growing topic as I keep adding to it as I play and take notes per session, I think it’s actually a better idea to keep the topic as is and don’t merge it within this so that it wouldn’t come off as I’m spamming this topic with the entirety of my points.
well, your thread is not duplicating this one - here I aimed at general shape of objective and tutorial system; you are more specific and provided a useful topic with a comprehensive list of issues/suggestions and I found it very helpful, as a lot of things you mentioned/suggested were on my mind, I simply haven’t got to writing about them yet (and now I don’t have to, so its nice to have someone that engaged and ready to help in discussions and feedback)
once again I need to say I’m sorry for duplicating topics that already exists on the forum.